US Cavalry Accoutrement identification help

[ShortbusElite]

Hey guys, I am having trouble narrowing this down. I am finding identical items to mine online where people say they were dug on other Civil War battlefields. I found mine on a well traveled road used in the Union escape about a mile from the Wilson Creek battle. Some people say these are as recent as WW1. Maybe I don't want to accept that these may not be Civil War era, I just struggle with them not being from that time when the history and location all add up to them being Civil War. What do you guys think? Worst case scenario I will take them to the museum there and ask the historians. Any help appreciated.

 

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[Dharmacy]

It looks to be pre WWII, I would think late 20's or 30's. I have never seen a CW piece have that type attachment to the leather, they were either attached with rivets, or were lead filled with an iron attachment bar.

D.

 

[ShortbusElite]

I ended up taking it to a Civil War museum a mile from the property where it was found. The curator confirmed it is in fact Civil War period. He took me in the back to show me similar examples. He was quite excited to see the shape it was in as well as the leather still being attached.

 

[Dharmacy]

Going by how it attaches to the leather I will have to disagree with the curators assessment.

D.

 

[Davers]

Hmmmmm?

I hate it , but I must agree with Dharmacy on this one.

I Could be wrong tho, 'the US piece beside yours in one picture , how was it originally attached to the leather , as I can not see where the hooks broke off. ?

No matter what , It's a very nice find. I'd display it proudly.

P.S. I wish that I had some 'Drawers ' like the museum has to display my stuff.

 

[Rookster]

Nice find whatever the age.

 

[Davers]

I ended up taking it to a Civil War museum a mile from the property where it was found. The curator confirmed it is in fact Civil War period. He took me in the back to show me similar examples. He was quite excited to see the shape it was in as well as the leather still being attached. View attachment 1605809 View attachment 1605810 View attachment 1605811 View attachment 1605812 View attachment 1605813

Did you go to 'The Ray house'?
Or the Wilson's Creek Civil War Museum ?

 

[ShortbusElite]

Did you go to 'The Ray house'?
Or the Wilson's Creek Civil War Museum ?

I went into the museum and was directed to a man in the back who identified himself as the curator.

 

[ShortbusElite]

Hmmmmm?

I hate it , but I must agree with Dharmacy on this one.

I Could be wrong tho, 'the US piece beside yours in one picture , how was it originally attached to the leather , as I can not see where the hooks broke off. ?

No matter what , It's a very nice find. I'd display it proudly.

P.S. I wish that I had some 'Drawers ' like the museum has to display my stuff.

I asked about the tabs specifically and he pointed out the places I have circled commenting that "those oftentimes broke off." He stated that there were different types of attachment and although his button may not be an exact match, he was confident due to the location where it was found and the style of the rosette/accoutrement that it was time period for the battle.

 

[Davers]

I asked about the tabs specifically and he pointed out the places I have circled commenting that "those oftentimes broke off." He stated that there were different types of attachment and although his button may not be an exact match, he was confident due to the location where it was found and the style of the rosette/accoutrement that it was time period for the battle. View attachment 1606217

Thank you for the extra info & time , I can see where he was talking about the attachments being.

Congratulations on a fine relic , please show us what else you recover in the future.
GD
Davers

 

[ShortbusElite]

Thank you for the extra info & time , I can see where he was talking about the attachments being.

Congratulations on a fine relic , please show us what else you recover in the future.
GD
Davers

You're welcome. All of the comments have really made me question the time period of my find. I of course want this thing to be from the Civil War. The man I spoke with at the museum had no doubt it was good for Civil War. Regardless of time period, I am glad I found it.

 

[Davers]

As I stated before , I'd be Very Glad to have dug that piece , hope to someday.

I been 'let down' many times in my CW Relic hunting & with Fake rings' it's part of the Hobby.

Keep Swinging / Digging & you will find.

Any Military Relics are top's on my 'to Find' list.
Have a great Evening.

 

[Carolina Tom]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/62878-u-s-bridle-rosette-update-blinder-rosettes.html

Congrats on the find. I stumbled upon the above whilst researching your find.

It’s construction seems more modern, but that font looks old to me. I don’t recall seeing one of these before.

 

[Carolina Tom]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/344535-us-button-help-please-possible-civil-war.html

Cannonballguy IDs it in the above thread. How about that boys?

 

[ShortbusElite]

I found this about 20 feet from where I found the US brass accoutrement. I am seeing these listed as Civil War era as well. Is this more misinformation as well?

 

[creskol]

It is a WWi era harness brass ..not Civil War. The other is a post war harness buckle cover.. not Civil War either.

 

[Dharmacy]

It is a good find regardless of its age. Don't take it as anyone is trying to discredit your find. Horse tack, rosettes, martingales, etc can be tricky to pin down a time frame to. My experience with items such as yours is that the attachment method has a distinct progression through the years. Civil War era being lead filled with an iron attachment bar, WWI era having a metal backing with iron attachment bar, and later pieces having the prongs made into the stamping, which perforated the leather and were then bent over to attach the device. I think a lot of the confusion in the ID of these pieces comes from the fact that a lot of CW battlefields were also used for military training in preparation for WWI, WWII. I don't think that is the case here, as it sounds like it was a small skirmish area, but I have had later military items show up in the strangest CW areas in the past. Like the others have said, any military find is a great find in my book!

D.

 

[gunsil]

Always cool to find these things! Small local museums often have many misidentified items and "curators" and/or "historians" who sadly don't really know jack. I have seen many many improperly labeled items in small museums, and usually trying to explain to whomever is in charge hits a stone wall as they would prefer not to know the truth about these items. Sad thing is that many people take things to these places for ID and get bad info which then gets passed own for posterity.

 

[Davers]

I hope shortbusEliete was not offended as he did ask for info.

Ill say it again nice finds anyway you look at it.

I can see why TCBG stays away from such debates.

I do have 2 questions , 1- Was the piece pictured in the Museum once Soldier or lead filled ?
&
2- Is the museum run by the National Park Service.?

shortbusEliete

Keep getting permissions in the Area (don't give up ) & IMO You will find something from the Battle or Era.
As not all Relics were lost on the Battlefield , these days it's hard after 50 ish years of the known 'Hunt-able' sites have been hit hundreds of times.

I'm willing to bet a Fired Minnie or GS Button or Better is out-there waiting for you.
Let Me / Us know when you find them.
GL
Davers

 

[Davers]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/344535-us-button-help-please-possible-civil-war.html

Cannonballguy IDs it in the above thread. How about that boys?

I about forgot .

Kudos (whatever that means ) Good Job ?
To Tom on his research.