USFS and BLM agency visits

[Bejay]

On a different thread the question was asked: How many miners have had visits by an agency person(s) who wanted to bring forth some agency authority.......Say a visit by a USFS or BLM agent.

I have, and it was pre-emoted by a USFS District Rangers letter....and that Dist Ranger came with 4 of his staff and the Hired hand Sheriff who was funded/employed by the USFS.

Also:

Last year I met and talked to a Douglas County Oregon Sheriff (a nice guy) who was employed by the BLM. He was putting up emergency road closure signs for the BLM.... (Douglas Complex forest fire). He even explained to me he was acting on behalf of as an employee of the BLM. He told me personally he does not harass miners.

The reason for this post/thread will be to see how many miners have actually had "out in the field" visits/confrontations/etc. with agency personnel.....And we may be able to clarify some of the issues miners are being asked to deal with.

A prospector/miner has a lot of potential issues to deal with.


Bejay

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[AzViper]

I am sure that GoldenIrishman and Lode Claim owner will appreciate having access to their claims. I have already emailed lode claim owner with the news and have his cell # as well. When waiting for Jeff 6 or 7 weeks ago out on his claim I meet Bob and we had a very lengthy discussion of the entire area. That is when I learned he and Joe built a 300 pound plus gate that they carried to the front and installed on the main drift. He will be able to drive within a 100 feet of his claim. Jeff on the other hand will gain additional access to his claim and will make taking water to and old foundation much easier. Fellas I would get a coping of the 1975 map and have at your disposal.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Prospector70]

the only visit I had wasn't even a visit, the ranger was talking to a guy in a small excavator while they were working along the Platte river in Colorado. I kept to myself for a minute and when they were done talking I hollered as loud as I could to get both their attentions, I pointed to the excavator operator then pointed at the spot I was digging in the river and made an imitation of the excavator in my hole, they both laughed and waved. (Was worth a shot though)

 

[goldenIrishman]

I'm beginning to think that Bob and I should get together for a little visit to the District office in Nogalas with maps and copies of the laws in hand. Once they see it our way, I'd even be willing to do a little maintenance on that road. Just enough to get all that loose rock off of it but not enough to turn it into the "Greaterville Expressway". While I have no problem sharing the area I'd rather not have every 4WD and Quad rider in AZ driving across the claim.

Gaining access to that road will really open up new areas of the claim for testing. Many are sections that I hadn't really planned on working due to the hassle it would be to get water as well as equipment up there. I'm sure Bob will love being able to drive right to his digs as well.

The USFS in this area is going to start thinking that they've got a bunch of lawyers mining in that area. Stay tuned folks! This is going to be getting interesting!

 

[goldenIrishman]

Keith... Check your texts on your phone!!!!!

 

[mendoAu]

Renewing our POO on this claim........only nine personnel from various agencies showed up the last visit.....piece o' cake !!!! Actually it seems to be going well but that also is the same feeling one gets right before that steely blade gets inserted deeply between your shoulder blades. It becomes a matter of listening, asking questions as to what will satisfy all the factions/requirements and knowing the legal requirements. The rub comes with an individual agent bringing up "what if's" and "possibilities" out of the scope of the actual permitting policy. For example: What if fish fry are captured in the holding pond during an extreme high water flood.....or the person who wanted the "topsoil" on the planned bench project removed, stored and replaced at the end of the operation when there is no topsoil to store and replace. Some requests are easily answered as to the last request re topsoil "O.K. we'll do that". I get a kick out of this most days just chalking it up to the life of a "hobbyist" HA!!

 

[Hefty1]

Renewing our POO on this claim........only nine personnel from various agencies showed up the last visit.....piece o' cake !!!! Actually it seems to be going well but that also is the same feeling one gets right before that steely blade gets inserted deeply between your shoulder blades. It becomes a matter of listening, asking questions as to what will satisfy all the factions/requirements and knowing the legal requirements. The rub comes with an individual agent bringing up "what if's" and "possibilities" out of the scope of the actual permitting policy. For example: What if fish fry are captured in the holding pond during an extreme high water flood.....or the person who wanted the "topsoil" on the planned bench project removed, stored and replaced at the end of the operation when there is no topsoil to store and replace. Some requests are easily answered as to the last request re topsoil "O.K. we'll do that". I get a kick out of this most days just chalking it up to the life of a "hobbyist" HA!!

Must be running a considerable size operation with all that attention.

 

[Bejay]

From M.E.G. Posting

About 5 years back, I posted this on another forum:

While down in the Rogue River, at ENNIS RIFFLE this last Sunday (09/13), a couple of us MEGs with a Mineral Exploration Machine had our first encounter with a couple Sheriff/BLM? Deputies with an apparent intent to get us to admit we were committing a crime of “dredging” in the wild and scenic “corridor”.

We informed them we were not dredging and in fact it was them committing a crime by interfering with our mineral exploration work. When asked to show their authority and jurisdiction expressed in the Grant (a copy of which we carry and handed them), neither produced any. It took a bit of educating them to the fact they were mischaracterizing our work tools and what we were in fact doing was what is authorized under the Grant of 1866. Hal, after repeated attempts of one of the Deputies to get us to admit to his assertions of dredging, told the deputy if his report or any subsequent citation issued were to indicate any different then what we explained to them we were actually doing (asserting our Rights under the Grant to the locatable minerals) would be a fraud.

We went back to work and they left. A “Victory” for us in standing up for our Rights and Entitlements We’ll see.

1866 Grant of Locatable Minerals to all citizens of the United States, and those who have declared their intention to become citizens. See Our Backyard the Law page....."M.E.G".

 

[goldenIrishman]

I feel that our biggest problems come when we have to deal with "officials" that have no idea of just what the laws are. In many cases they're just following orders from those above them and don't think to question those orders. Those that are making these decisions are at times ignorant of what the laws say themselves. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get it so that before a person could be promoted to a management level position that they had to pass a test on at least the basic laws that govern the area(s) they're supposed to be managing? Just think of how much of the tax payers money could be saved by groups like the USFS, BLM, DFG etc etc etc didn't have to be taken to court because they ran into a miner or other outdoors type person that knew more about the laws than they did and decided to fight the citation they were given out of ignorance.

I've been thinking that maybe we should start a thread with nothing but links to mining laws. I know there are a lot of links for them already but they're spread out all over the place. A single thread on mining laws would make it easier for someone to find what they need to look up. Maybe get it made into a "Sticky"

 

[M.E.G.]

A number of years back, the Sheriff in Josephine County Oregon was getting inundated with reports from miners, campers, atv riders, hikers, etc of out of control BLM and US Forest Service agents. It was only after a small number of very knowledgeable miners from SWOMA (South West Oregon Mining Association), and others, had several one on one sit down talks with him, that subsequently leaded to this: Federal Jurisdiction within a State http://www.usobserver.com/archive/sep-11/Gil-Federal-Jurisdiction.pdf

 

[Hefty1]

"Just think of how much of the tax payers money could be saved by groups like the USFS, BLM, DFG etc etc etc"



As an Agency, the heads of them dont care what or whos money they spend. Its taxpayer money!

But if we start taking the individual that harms us? They will start worring about the real laws.

 

[Bejay]

I feel that our biggest problems come when we have to deal with "officials" that have no idea of just what the laws are. In many cases they're just following orders from those above them and don't think to question those orders. Those that are making these decisions are at times ignorant of what the laws say themselves. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get it so that before a person could be promoted to a management level position that they had to pass a test on at least the basic laws that govern the area(s) they're supposed to be managing? Just think of how much of the tax payers money could be saved by groups like the USFS, BLM, DFG etc etc etc didn't have to be taken to court because they ran into a miner or other outdoors type person that knew more about the laws than they did and decided to fight the citation they were given out of ignorance.

I've been thinking that maybe we should start a thread with nothing but links to mining laws. I know there are a lot of links for them already but they're spread out all over the place. A single thread on mining laws would make it easier for someone to find what they need to look up. Maybe get it made into a "Sticky"

A forum really does not work to teach mining law/rules/regs/policies...been there done it.

BUT THIS WORKED:
Did it already: americanmininglawforum.myfastforum.org :: Index

You can copy all the relevant info and carry a portfolio with all the necessary rules/regs/laws/policies and YOU can be the one to educate those agency personnel who really have never seen the real applications per mining and the prospector/miner.


Bejay

 

[Bejay]

Some miners who have participated in the mining law forum just posted this and miners in Idaho get it!

From a Idaho miner: Posting this on : americanmininglawforum.myfastforum.org :: Index
==============================================================

Interesting: Just got word of this. Hope anyone can make it from anywhere.

I just got off the phone with Mr. Chmelik and he wants this done soon. He said, "I am bringing my Sheriff with me and if they want to harass or arrest anyone, then they will have to arrest us all!" Mr. Chmelik wants a goal of 5000 + miners to make the "Occupy Our Rivers Movement." Our two senators have jumped on board to help Mr. Chmelik. So keep an eye out for news on this to come. In the meantime, read what Mr. Chmelik wrote in the Idaho County newsletter:


OCCUPY OUR RIVERS

CALL TO ACTION

Recent Events in Idaho have prompted several citizens to take actions and demand accountability from their government and I am extremely proud of their actions in their quest for justice.

Two weeks before the Riggins Rodeo the BLM attempted to close Shorts Bar and Island bar. These two beaches are central to accommodating spectators who travel from out the region to enjoy the rodeo and the beauty of the Salmon River. Two weeks before the jet boat races the Coast Guard attempted to shut the race down by not sanctioning the race. In both of these cases citizens stood up and said no and that we the people have had enough.

Now the EPA under the threat of a lawsuit from the Idaho Conservation League is saying no to recreational dredge miners on the premise they are introducing a pollutant discharge into the river when nothing could be further from the truth and U.S. Supreme Court precedent reinforces the dredge miners position. If they can do this to the dredge miners, the jet boaters will be next.

If we do not take action and unite, then we get the government we tolerate.

It is the view of this elected official that we come together and peacefully assemble to petition our government for a redress of grievances, and formally protest the out of control tyrannical government imposing their ideas of how we should live in the west.

If the socialists can come together and occupy Wall Street, surely we can Occupy the River for a day. I would personally support all dredge miners and all other interested parties to come together and have a day of protest. It is our right and I believe our duty to stand united. As a sitting county commissioner I will personally assist the dredgers and dare the EPA to arrest me while exercising our First Amendment Rights. Can I count on you?

One person cannot do everything, however, together we can all do something. We need people to help us organize this event, set a date and get the word out. I will leave you with this thought, In 1857 in his personal conviction in battling for freedom and the equal rights of all as provided for under our Constitution, Frederick Douglas stated, "Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

Sincerely,

Jim Chmelik

Idaho County Commissioner

District III

(208) 983-8133
[email protected]

 

[AzViper]

We saw first hand what the power of people can do in Nevada just weeks ago. The same can be done in every state provide everyone comes out in numbers.

 

[Bejay]

Here is what one miner is doing: From the americanmininglawforum.myfastforum.org Index


Hi Everyone, the Forest Service without permission or even notifying my partner or myself installed what they call a bat friendly closure in a drift, and put a culvert with a grate in a shaft that accesses the same drift.
We went through the administrative process, and the Forest Service did not respond within the six months they had to respond to it, so this past July 8th, 2013, we filed a 500,000.00 suit against them in Sacramento.
The Forest Service spent 30,000.00 to do this even though they found no bat colonies in the mine, and there was a cover over the shaft, and a gate on the portal.
The US attorney filed a motion to have part of our complaint thrown out, we filed an answer to that. And we are awaiting the Judges ruling. I just got an e Mail from the judghe saying the US attorney will be filing a brief tomorrow, I will continue to keep everyone updated from this point. Big Al
Next:
Yesterday the government got us kicked out of the eastern district court, we have to refile in the federal claims court, this does have some real advantages for us so it was not a bad thing after we had time to think it through, although we looked like deer in the headlights when they hit us with it. Basically we have a takings claim, which is why the different court. We will be fileing inverse condemnation, trespass, nuisance, and violation of due process. The government attorney said we really do have a case, we were just in the wrong court. Big Al
Next Today we filed an appeal to the judges decision that we belonged in Claims Court. As the case was being forced towards Inverse Condemnation, and we cannot get relief in claims court, the proper jurisdiction is the Eastern District. Will keep you posted, Big Al
Next The Government filed it's objection to our appeal to stay in the Eastern District Court today, rehashing it's objections. We will see what happens with the judge, at least it will be a different Judge this time. Big Al
Next,
Judge went with the government on Jurisdiction. Big Al
Next
I have to rewrite the complaint for the court of federal claims, come up with another 400.00 filing fee, which I should have shortly, and get it filed. I will post it here when I do. Big Al

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/caedce/2:2013cv01351/255995
============================================================================

Bejay

 

[Hefty1]

Ahhh...Tahoe National Forest Again!

 

[Hoser John]

Bloody bunch a environutz FS idjets think the laws mean nothing. Give'm ll-John

 

[Clay Diggins]

Inverse Condemnation is a takings action. The judge has made it clear that they are in the wrong court. Their complaint belongs in the Federal Court of Claims. Its a silly move to appeal that decision because the judge has already said she will grant a dismissal for the Forest Service if it is seen in it's current form in her court again.

This is why I continue to warn against takings actions. They don't generally belong in the regular courts, they aren't winnable without evidence of a perfected claim and they won't get you back the ability to mine. Takings actions are all about getting paid for what was lawfully taken from you. If you think the governments action was unlawful (and in this case it probably was) then sue them for relief - not money.

Asking higher courts, on appeal, to overthrow poorly argued cases is not going to get you a win. Appeals are not "do overs". The original case is reviewed for error. No new evidence or legal theories are permitted.

The miners once again tried to apply the tort laws to agency action. This will get your cause thrown out of court every time despite the what MEG has to say in this thread. The Administrative Procedures Act (APA) governs administrative actions and without a final determination within the administrative system there is no possibility of a court ruling on those actions. AFTER that final determination you may reliably sue for arbitrary or capricious actions on the part of the Forest Service.

In this case it seems that the Forest Services action was arbitrary. I don't like or agree with the APA system of agency actions being subject to their own internal review before their victims can get relief in a real court. I think the system sucks. But it is the law and trying to get around it by claiming a "takings" or a "tort" will just get you tossed out or boomeranged into another whole realm of law and jurisdiction that will leave you lost and confused. Words really do matter and in this case the misunderstanding of the words they used got their complaint moved out of Federal Court into the United States Court of Claims, to the surprise of the miners.

It's time for miners to realize that the courts aren't crooked but instead it's their understanding of the legal process that is out of whack with reality. Bringing the same failing arguments to court will result in the same losses. It's most certainly the recent experience of small miners in California and as long as we keep bringing the same game plan to every court we will keep losing.

I probably won't be revisiting this issue here. It's boring and counterproductive for folks that just want to get out and find some gold. For those of you serious about full time mining or outraged by government actions against miners I strongly suggest you investigate, in depth, the case Bejay has linked here and the process I have outlined above. It's time for miners to rethink their understanding of the law and the court system they may eventually find themselves involved in. These are fights you can win but if you keep showing up at the gunfight with a stick you will keep losing.

Heavy Pans

 

[M.E.G.]

The wrongful agency action, any not consistent with law, are Trespass/Tort or Breach of an expressed or implied contract regarding appropriation of the soil, is an unlawful takings in the first instance. You choose which cause for the takings and the irreparable harm and go to the appropriate court, either the US Court of Federal Claims, above 10K$, and upon breach, or a district court of U.S., NOT a territorial or United States District Court, for tort. The U.S. Code explains which and for what. As any one can also find the information supplemental to the Code provisions through reading the U.S. Attorney's manual for takings.

Contrary to what Clay thinks he knows about the sanctity of the courts, we have identified, in fact in open Assembly at the Jefferson Mining District, where the Claims Court judges systematically restated background facts incorrectly of a Claim to remove the property status and then dismissed the claim. This was done on purpose, and methodologically so. I don't know what more proof we need than that you better go into these matters, instead of with your head in the clouds dreaming of justice, understanding the courts are corrupt, until such time as we can confirm that they are not. As I have stated before, we have other proofs. All this means is you have to bring your “A”-game, such that this can be any game. Though trust-bound by the gov's Soil Disposal obligation, the judges will not help as I can show in the current example below. In fact, they are adversarial and you will need to know how to constrain that lawlessness. Again, without miners to actually help in the trenches, this is going to be a much longer war; The war against the laws of the United States by those occupying the System itself.

And commenting to an ongoing matter is usually a bit dangerous to do, responding to a case situation without the actual knowledge of the facts, so let's pretend it went this way, that the GRANTEE mistakenly filed a prima facie takings Claim in the territorial federal district court, USDC, in his state and that court dismissed instead of, after finding a valid takings claim, transferring to the Court of Federal Claims, which can only be for a breach of an expressed or implied contract, which grantees have, that judge violated the Claimant by not transferring the case pursuant to 28 USC 1631 immediately, to which ever other court had competence; depending upon the underlying cause, either Tort or Breach. Appeal isn't even a consideration, not because those are for review, but because the claim was mistakenly filed in the wrong court and needed to be transferred. Moreover then, when the judge didn't transfer as required by law, without authority or jurisdiction at all for any other action taken even to dismiss, the “judge” also stole the filing fee which should be applied at the court of competent jurisdiction. Once the case is transferred the CLAIMANT can amend his CLAIM for harm, if need be, though if the territorial court found a takings cause more than 10K$, I'm not sure what more there needs to be claimed than to prove into evidence the perfected location pursuant to federal and state location requirements. Though as we have seen, in practice the DOJ enters to breach the Govs trust obligations to deny the perfected property location. These, sadly, are the “precedent” 'everyone' seems content to rely on. And again, that just means you have to stick to the facts of your claim only and counter the second takings cause now, unless determined “legally” so, by the DOJ, a trust tort to the Article III district court, dcUs, not back to the original territorial court, USDC.

So, we can walk away because the war is hard and boring or we can go back and get what has been stolen from us by a system that is corrupt to the core right now. Does that mean every court decision is wrong. NO. In fact, you all got a good one out of Cali last year where the judge said, essentially, ““Recreational Mining”? You have no property or rights.”.To my astonishment no one moved upon that authority determined in law that EACH grantee has property unlawfully interfered with by the State 'O Cali. So why the Silence of the experts purporting to know the law as mining lawyers? And you are not interested in other court cases, just what happens to your claim; And knowing the importance of evidentiarilly showing your granted property possession an making sure the court doesn't stealthily alter that.

I can continue to agree with Clay in part, You all “keep bringing the same game plan to every court we will keep losing”. The additional problem is, we are at a point in time when we will not be allowed to just get out and find some gold for as counterproductive as that fact is. An unlawful takings claim is a proper course of action properly proceeded. This can be done much more inexpensively administratively as well as a measure to avoid a taking, which though does require “exhaustion”. I've explained this method summarily at the GPAA seminar earlier this year. There are other remedies, whether or not you have to out the corruption of any particular court, or not, that might rear its ugliness. So the choice appears clear, either properly engage the war against the law of the land or lose it and your property and your livelihood.

Grantees have the power. They merely have to role up their sleeves and either work to avoid a takings by proper administrative responses showing the lack of authority of the government in the first instance or file a claim for takings immediate the irreparable harm caused where gov goes wild.

 

[Clay Diggins]

... a district court of U.S., NOT a territorial or United States District Court

A trip to that court in Hawaii could result in a nice vacation but I'm thinking you might just be stymied by the local perception of venue if you could find a magistrate to help form a court.

Trying to form a District Court of the United States will prove to be difficult at best. Every court requires three entities at minimum to gain jurisdiction. It seems to me your adversary and the referee would be missing in your attempts, leaving you with nothing but an empty room and other men thinking you the fool for attempting to "swap the words around".

What you assume to be ignorance on my part is really just a lifetime of dealing effectively with the situation as it is.

You might try it sometime, it can be refreshingly productive.

In the meantime lets try to stick to non political subjects. The moderators here are particularly touchy about that rule.

 

[russau]

yep i understand the political subjects not supposed to be posted here,BUT if it isnt talked about and passed around we wont be doing any prospecting,dredgeing,mining anywhere because of the wacoenviromentalists and out own gubermints lack of a backbone!