Very Thick Brass/Copper Chunky Ring - Never seen one like this before

BioProfessor · Aug 17, 2010

Greeting again from the Netherlands. The potato crop is starting to come out and I'm getting back to some places that have given up some nice medieval finds. I braved the rain today to hunt a freshly harvested part of a field. Found the normal stuff - coin from the 1600's, clothes fasteners, lead bale seals, musket balls, etc. and then this popped out of the ground.

I've dug a lot of rings (mostly horse tack) in a lot of places but nothing like this. It is solid and came out of the ground just like this. My best guess is that it is brass. There is no green bronze disease so I'm pretty sure it is not bronze.

I've looked at what is called "Ring Money" and all the examples I can find that are this thick and big are made by bending a rod into a circle. This one was not bent and there is little evidence of a sprue of a size needed to cast something of this size. So I'm stumped.

Any help, guidance, or similar finds would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Daryl

woody50 · Aug 19, 2010

A friend of mine (well he works for the govt but is still a friend) says he found it in books and its a bronze age bead (in Dutch for BioPro = bronstijd kraal), although not from glass.
Maybe though a trail to follow? The form looks good, only the size and material is different.

Lucas · Aug 19, 2010

What do bronze age loom weights and net weights look like in the Netherlands?

IronSpike · Aug 19, 2010

I like the bead idea :icon_thumright:

http://shopping.erol.co.uk/search.php?q=category:Jewellery:bead&page=2&sort=relevance

timekiller · Aug 19, 2010

Leather is plenty tough enough to make the groves I see.Not to mention it could have been replaced over time.Also imagine some bits of sand getting between it and no problem at all making a groove.
I mean they do use leather to shapen steel knives with.Just a Thought! :icon_scratch:

Good Luck What ever it is! :hello:

Lucas · Aug 19, 2010

Cord could do that too.

timekiller · Aug 19, 2010

Here is a item I found at a early site that gave up things from the late 1500's to early 1700's.It's lead though and always thought it was a old net weight myself never thought about it much. :dontknow:

Also some other items off the net that used bronze rings close to the size of yours.But pendant is the best guess I think for yours going on the marks alone.IMHO!
Take Care,
Pete :hello:

BioProfessor · Aug 19, 2010

Looks like the bead thing may be close. It would be nice if Woody would share more pixels though. They are pretty cheap.

From what I can see, the bead thing is the only one that is thick and chunky enough. Most of the others are typical rings where the center hole is pretty big and the ring is relatively thin. A really good set of close ups from Woody will tell the tale.

As far as the groves, the were put there I believe. They are too regular and straight to have been caused by random wear.

And leather IS used on knives but not to sharpen. It is used to either remove the bur that is left after sharpening or help straighten the very thin edge left from sharpening. It really doesn't remove any metal, it just cleans and/or straightens it.

Thanks for all the pics and ideas. From what I see, Woody's bead may be a match. If I could see it that is.

I think we are close.

Daryl

woody50 · Aug 20, 2010

Timekiller said:
Leather is plenty tough enough to make the groves I see.Not to mention it could have been replaced over time.Also imagine some bits of sand getting between it and no problem at all making a groove.
I mean they do use leather to sharpen steel knives with.Just a Thought!
Good Luck What ever it is!

Hi, thanks for your message and idea. But I don't agree. Look at the size of the thing, its tiny. Then you need a strap of leather, it has to be very very thin to be able to make those tiny grooves. Such a thin strap (mm work) would not be strong enough to hold the object, it would break.

Say!
If we forget the grooves for a minute, and think that the grooves were made for decoration, how would that change our thinking? A piece of jewelry, a thing to used for horse leather decoration, or a piece used to hold something together, that was lost before it could be used?

Then it could be more things, but I am still sticking to my idea that it is bronze time or earlier. I saw the object which was just out of the ground, still with mud on it. It just feels older than we think, at least that is my idea. I am going for a banner on this one. Sure hope someone comes with a determination!

About the patina on the object, it is so deep and fine, it had to be made way back when before people put artificial manure on the lands and before the rain in Europe became sour, and even before that. Nowdays the metals don't have the chance to even begin making a patina, which takes hundreds or thousands of years. The chemicals that are used for weed/animal resistance do not allow that anymore. You should see the (remains) of copper/bronze coins that we find nowadays here in Holland, they are very bad compared to years ago and getting worse every year.

How this item existed in SANDY soil for its lifetime is almost unbelievable!

woody50 · Aug 20, 2010

Timekiller said:
Here is a item I found at a early site that gave up things from the late 1500's to early 1700's.It's lead though and always thought it was a old net weight myself never thought about it much.
Also some other items off the net that used bronze rings close to the size of yours.But pendant is the best guess I think for yours going on the marks alone.IMHO!
Take Care,
Pete

Thanks Pete for showing us these, but they are not even close! Its such a nice thing to hold and looks quite different in real life. Photos are pretty difficult to make for some items and coins. If you saw an professional photo of this item you would see (Sorry Daryl, you did make pretty good photos, but you know what I mean about a professional photo I hope, otherwise you can tap me on my hard head this afternoon).....

Silver Searcher · Aug 20, 2010

What ever it is, my guess it will date to either the Bronze age, or Iron age

SS

trikikiwi · Aug 20, 2010

I thought I had seen a seam in Pic#2

woody50 · Aug 20, 2010

trikikiwi said:
I thought I had seen a seam in Pic#2

Hmmm, sure does look like that... Daryl?
Maybe some sort of reflection...

trikikiwi · Aug 20, 2010

Or the residue of something held in the inner ring ?

timekiller · Aug 20, 2010

I was just trying to add some ideas.As I was seeing them.Not wanting to dissreguard any new ideas or change people to think my way.I had took the piece of mine which seems close to the size of his and ran some stripes of different piece of material through it is how I was coming up with pendant as a best guess.With mine and it is lead so it is heavy for it's size I still see no problem.My cell phone pics aren't worth a crap and is starting to (PO) me.

I also still don't see why someone working with it around their neck with dirt and dust building up on it sliping back and forth through the ring can't wear that groove mark I'm seeing.Just me, it may be logical if it was in my hand. :dontknow:

That lead piece in my hand is a little odd long stretched some I think.But is 26mm one way 30mm at largest point.Inside hole is 10mm.The piece of nylon cord I put through it and made a simple loop through hitch knot.I would hang from I'm sure (215lbs my weight) also looked good for a pendant.

Yes the patina on it is purdy,dark chocolate.We don't find items as old here of course as you guy's but I have found right many bronze items myself.One being the spoon mold.But what is odd is other items I know are from say 19th century even came up darker patina then the mold did.The mold was up on land a bit and water in the area was more brackish,then other place I've found bronze objects so it may had something to do with it. :icon_scratch:

Could also be the mix of tin and copper used to make the different types of items.
Just trying to explain myself a little (boy it's early)

And now I need to get ready for work today. :wink:

You guy's Take Care!& Hope you have something really neat.
Reguards,
Pete, :hello:

BioProfessor · Aug 20, 2010

I agree in the picture you posted it looks like a seam but if you look at the pictures of the inside, you will see that it has a flat surface on the inside. What you see that looks like a seam is the top or the bottom of that flat part.

And Woody you are right about the size of the leather strips they would be so small that with a little age to them, the thing would fall off right in the field as you walked across it. . . . Oh Crap. :laughing7:

Whatever it is, it's purdy.

Daryl

woody50 · Aug 20, 2010

Timekiller said:
I was just trying to add some ideas.As I was seeing them.Not wanting to dissreguard any new ideas or change people to think my way.I had took the piece of mine which seems close to the size of his and ran some stripes of different piece of material through it is how I was coming up with pendant as a best guess.With mine and it is lead so it is heavy for it's size I still see no problem.My cell phone pics aren't worth a crap and is starting to (PO) me. I also still don't see why someone working with it around their neck with dirt and dust building up on it sliping back and forth through the ring can't wear that groove mark I'm seeing.Just me, it may be logical if it was in my hand. That lead piece in my hand is a little odd long stretched some I think.But is 26mm one way 30mm at largest point.Inside hole is 10mm.The piece of nylon cord I put through it and made a simple loop through hitch knot.I would hang from I'm sure (215lbs my weight) also looked good for a pendant.
Yes the patina on it is purdy,dark chocolate.We don't find items as old here of course as you guy's but I have found right many bronze items myself.One being the spoon mold.But what is odd is other items I know are from say 19th century even came up darker patina then the mold did.The mold was up on land a bit and water in the area was more brackish,then other place I've found bronze objects so it may had something to do with it. Could also be the mix of tin and copper used to make the different types of items.
Just trying to explain myself a little (boy it's early) And now I need to get ready for work today.
You guy's Take Care!& Hope you have something really neat.
Reguards,
Pete,

Hi Pete, we find that sort of lead spacers all the time over here, they found everyplace. Either used for sewing or machine parts? This find is not flat, it round like a donut. The patina is or was made yes, from an mixture of metals. Could be copper, tin or other metals. Most of the time copper gives a green patina, but adding other metals can make different patina colors, also where the item is at makes a difference, the chemical content of the soil and such.