Waltz and known facts, not stories

H-2 CHARLIE

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Even if he had a stash of super high grade , that could be considered a gold mine but no one will ever know .
With him trying to pass so said clues and directions , Who really knows ?
 

sdcfia

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... If it's facts you want about there being a mine, it should be facts about there not being a mine also. Not opinion, or what you THINK would have or should have happened.

Best,

Matthew

There is only one fact that would prove the existence of this alleged mine - its location. Failing that, the story's burden of proof rests on a boatload of testimonies, allegations, rumors and hearsay - nearly all of which arose from way too many degrees of separation from Waltz to be considered reliable. Much convincing hearsay, oh yes, but any more than one degree of separation cannot be considered uncorrupted. The box of picture rock was tangible evidence and presumably attributable to Waltz. However, that rock could have come from anywhere.

It's understandable why so many folks back in the day were avid searchers - they were much closer to the flame and were caught up in the emotion of the times. However, today, whether or not the Waltz mine exists as currently believed by many (it's possible of course), my working model is that I haven't seen anything to justify a serious ground search for it.
 

Lucky Baldwin

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.... The box of picture rock was tangible evidence and presumably attributable to Waltz. However, that rock could have come from anywhere. .....

You look at it as "it could have come from anywhere," I look at it as "it had to come from somewhere."

That somewhere is anybody's guess.

I believe it was in Dr. Glover's book where a chemical analysis of the candlebox ore was published. This is THE benchmark for proving the relocation of the lost dutchman mine. If someone finds a mine that produces ore where the chemical composition of both the gold and the gangue material matches the tested candlebox ore, then they've relocated the lost dutchman mine. Whether or not it's in the Superstitions is immaterial.
 

sdcfia

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You look at it as "it could have come from anywhere," I look at it as "it had to come from somewhere."

That somewhere is anybody's guess.

I believe it was in Dr. Glover's book where a chemical analysis of the candlebox ore was published. This is THE benchmark for proving the relocation of the lost dutchman mine. If someone finds a mine that produces ore where the chemical composition of both the gold and the gangue material matches the tested candlebox ore, then they've relocated the lost dutchman mine. Whether or not it's in the Superstitions is immaterial.

You have much more confidence in the "ore comparison" idea than I do, for reasons that were covered in great detail somewhere in these large LDM threads. But, theoretically, you're right - if an ore sample was retrieved somewhere that all agreed was a match to the Glover jewelry ore tests, then the jewelry ore would likely be assumed to have come from that "somewhere."
 

nobodie

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Walter Gasslers manuscript page 9,
"Dick Holmes told Tex Berkeley he left 6-7 bags back there buried and hidden." And since Clay said that J.W. covered the mine with logs and dirt, he wouldn't need the mine. He could get the gold from bags when ever he needed to.
 

deducer

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Walter Gasslers manuscript page 9,
"Dick Holmes told Tex Berkeley he left 6-7 bags back there buried and hidden." And since Clay said that J.W. covered the mine with logs and dirt, he wouldn't need the mine. He could get the gold from bags when ever he needed to.

According to the Holmes Manuscript, Dick did need the mine. He had told his son that the objective was to find the rock house so that he could pace off from it to find the mine, and from there, to the cache(s). I am going strictly off memory here, so feel free to correct me.
 

nobodie

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Dick may have wanted to find the mine, but Waltz may have been happy with the 6-7bags he had hidden (maybe previously dug by the mexicans). Enough gold to take care of himself through the years. I would be happy with the 6-7 bags so I could retire and finally relax. I'm not greedy.
 
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markmar

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Dick may have wanted to find the mine, but Waltz may have been happy with the 6-7bags he had hidden (maybe previously dug by the mexicans). Enough gold to take care of himself through the years. I would be happy with the 6-7 bags so I could retire and finally relax. I'm not greedy.

From what i remember , Waltz said he had dug and left in the mine about 75,000 $ ( in his time value ) in gold . So , someone have to find the mine to get the already picked out gold .
Now about the Mexican gold ( nuggets and dust ) that they have cached , I believe is in another place , like the mine depicted in the Gonzales/Clark map , which is also the target in the Salazar survey .
 

deducer

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Dick may have wanted to find the mine, but Waltz may have been happy with the 6-7bags he had hidden (maybe previously dug by the mexicans). Enough gold to take care of himself through the years. I would be happy with the 6-7 bags so I could retire and finally relax. I'm not greedy.

I believe that Dick Holmes was not interested in reopening the mine. He was also looking for the cache(s).
 

Oroblanco

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I would only add that there are reasons to believe that several other lost mines (tales) have become mixed in with the mine of Jacob Waltz. This has almost certainly helped to keep the mine lost, because we are working with a mixed up set of "clues" from three, four or possibly even more lost mines that earlier treasure writers ASSUMED just HAD to be the very same mine of Jacob Waltz. Hence the string of nearly identical incidents from the "Jacobs and Ludy" mine (actually two ex-Union soldiers named Ludy, eighteen years age difference and may have been uncle and nephew) including the whole Peralta saga. Yet there is a separate, different version of the Waltz mine location and history, with no massacre and far less exciting drama. Clearly, not all of these clues can be referring to the very same mine.

The list of 'facts' surrounding Jacob Waltz are pretty slim pickings, no one has yet identified absolutely when Waltz immigrated to the US or from what part of Germany (it is possible he was Swiss though unlikely) for instance, and for our skeptics, it is far easier to just say that Waltz must have been highgrading ore from the >_______< (fill in the blank here, Vulture, Bulldog, etc) or that it was stolen from a group of Mexicans/Peraltas and so on. Yet really the gold ore from which the famous jewelry was made, and which helped Julia save her business was absolutely real and came from a gold mine. Until someone finds that mine, it is going to remain lost. On the other hand, over 200 have already found it, heck we have a new finder about every two weeks or so, so the Superstitions must be loaded with hundreds of rich gold mines for so many to have found the LDM in over 200 different places.


I have to say amen to the comments about trying to put yourself in Waltz's place to decide what he would or would not do, the times were very different from today, there was no Social Security and no Medicare, an old bachelor miner whom had hoarded a bit of his gold over the years for the old age pension was nothing unusual at all in the 19th and early 20th century. That does not make it stolen from Mexicans or highgraded from someone else's mine either.

One last thing, while both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn today have stated their opinions have changed about the LDM, I want to know how full of doubts you would be, if you were to be allowed to see the actual assay documents and other documents that both Corbin and Kollenborn swore an affidavit to having seen. Years of constant ridicule and arguments from skeptics can affect anyone, rather like the fellow who sees a UFO and then everyone tells him he is crazy - until you see things with your own eyes, you really can't say. Plus there are reasons to believe that Waltz actually had a rich gold mine, like the gold in the candle box, the records of his having located good gold mines earlier in his career, and the witnesses who saw him selling ore. You are certainly welcome to dismiss that and stay home, you won't lose any money and won't find any lost mines either.

Please do continue;

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

sdcfia

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I would only add that there are reasons to believe that several other lost mines (tales) have become mixed in with the mine of Jacob Waltz. This has almost certainly helped to keep the mine lost, because we are working with a mixed up set of "clues" from three, four or possibly even more lost mines that earlier treasure writers ASSUMED just HAD to be the very same mine of Jacob Waltz. Hence the string of nearly identical incidents from the "Jacobs and Ludy" mine (actually two ex-Union soldiers named Ludy, eighteen years age difference and may have been uncle and nephew) including the whole Peralta saga. Yet there is a separate, different version of the Waltz mine location and history, with no massacre and far less exciting drama. Clearly, not all of these clues can be referring to the very same mine.

The list of 'facts' surrounding Jacob Waltz are pretty slim pickings, no one has yet identified absolutely when Waltz immigrated to the US or from what part of Germany (it is possible he was Swiss though unlikely) for instance, and for our skeptics, it is far easier to just say that Waltz must have been highgrading ore from the >_______< (fill in the blank here, Vulture, Bulldog, etc) or that it was stolen from a group of Mexicans/Peraltas and so on. Yet really the gold ore from which the famous jewelry was made, and which helped Julia save her business was absolutely real and came from a gold mine. Until someone finds that mine, it is going to remain lost. On the other hand, over 200 have already found it, heck we have a new finder about every two weeks or so, so the Superstitions must be loaded with hundreds of rich gold mines for so many to have found the LDM in over 200 different places.


I have to say amen to the comments about trying to put yourself in Waltz's place to decide what he would or would not do, the times were very different from today, there was no Social Security and no Medicare, an old bachelor miner whom had hoarded a bit of his gold over the years for the old age pension was nothing unusual at all in the 19th and early 20th century. That does not make it stolen from Mexicans or highgraded from someone else's mine either.

One last thing, while both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn today have stated their opinions have changed about the LDM, I want to know how full of doubts you would be, if you were to be allowed to see the actual assay documents and other documents that both Corbin and Kollenborn swore an affidavit to having seen. Years of constant ridicule and arguments from skeptics can affect anyone, rather like the fellow who sees a UFO and then everyone tells him he is crazy - until you see things with your own eyes, you really can't say. Plus there are reasons to believe that Waltz actually had a rich gold mine, like the gold in the candle box, the records of his having located good gold mines earlier in his career, and the witnesses who saw him selling ore. You are certainly welcome to dismiss that and stay home, you won't lose any money and won't find any lost mines either.

Please do continue;

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:

Good level-headed summary, Oro. Too bad the legend seems to hinge on that box of retirement ore.

[OT: By the way, since I know you're interested in cryptozoology - the giant bird my searching partner and I reported seeing in the Cookes Range 10-12 years ago was recently spotted again. This time seen by a group of Benedictine monks directly above their monastery just north of Silver City. Again, a wingspan estimated to be 20+ feet.]
 

ORO18

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Marius, I thought the" Dock Thorn mine" Assay reports from his claim in the old state capitol building in Prescott showed the same Assay as the waltz Matchbox? Or is that in correct information?
 

Oroblanco

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Good level-headed summary, Oro. Too bad the legend seems to hinge on that box of retirement ore.

[OT: By the way, since I know you're interested in cryptozoology - the giant bird my searching partner and I reported seeing in the Cookes Range 10-12 years ago was recently spotted again. This time seen by a group of Benedictine monks directly above their monastery just north of Silver City. Again, a wingspan estimated to be 20+ feet.]

Well the 'legend' doesn't really hinge on the candle box ore for me personally, the eyewitnesses who saw Waltz sell a burro load of ore in Tucson alone would be sufficient for my own purposes to provide enough foundation for further research. Unfortunately the tales have been so interwoven at this point it is very difficult to extract what is unrelated. Hmm that makes it sound like every detail is difficult to separate which is not exactly true, I think we can safely dispose of clues that can be directly linked to other lost mines, like the whole Peralta saga (viz->Ludy) or the black quartz ore of Apache Jack, the 'grains of wheat' on top of the mesa etc.

Thanks for the heads up, sure wish I was in that area right now, with a good camera! I hope someone can get some photos of it.
Roy
 

sdcfia

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Well the 'legend' doesn't really hinge on the candle box ore for me personally, the eyewitnesses who saw Waltz sell a burro load of ore in Tucson alone would be sufficient for my own purposes to provide enough foundation for further research. Unfortunately the tales have been so interwoven at this point it is very difficult to extract what is unrelated. Hmm that makes it sound like every detail is difficult to separate which is not exactly true, I think we can safely dispose of clues that can be directly linked to other lost mines, like the whole Peralta saga (viz->Ludy) or the black quartz ore of Apache Jack, the 'grains of wheat' on top of the mesa etc.

Thanks for the heads up, sure wish I was in that area right now, with a good camera! I hope someone can get some photos of it.
Roy

That's what I mean. The matchbox is at least tangible evidence, whether or not it's pertinent to the Waltz saga.

The Tucson witness. Who was he? Where was his place of business? When did the sale occur? Who bought the ore? Did he know Waltz enough to ID him? How much ore was sold? How rich was it? Is there evidence of the shipping, assay, etc? When answers to these types of questions can be reasonably be verified, then one might agree that Waltz had access to good ore. If the Tucson incident could be verified, then you have the prickly question of whether it was a covert sale of recently mined ore, or a sale of his previously cached ore.

Well, I had a good camera in my pack the day I saw that big bird. Trouble is, when you're surprised by something so unusual, you're mesmerized, confused and a bit frozen. By the time I even thought about my camera, the event was over and done with. If you find yourself in a similar situation, I would hope that your results might vary.
 

markmar

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Marius, I thought the" Dock Thorn mine" Assay reports from his claim in the old state capitol building in Prescott showed the same Assay as the waltz Matchbox? Or is that in correct information?

I didn't know of a " Dock Thorn " mine assay , but if Doc Thorne , who was led blindfolded by the Natives to a rich placer ( in fact was a gold in quartz vein outcrop which Waltz worked it later as the " Placer " ) in the Supers , did an assay of his ore collected from that place , then i believe that assay would has the same matrix with the LDM and the infamous matchbox .
 
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deducer

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I didn't know of a " Dock Thorn " mine assay , but if Doc Thorne , who was led blindfolded by the Natives to a rich placer ( in fact was a gold in quartz vein outcrop which Waltz worked it later as the " Placer " ) in the Supers , did an assay of his ore collected from that place , then i believe that assay would has the same matrix with the LDM and the infamous matchbox .

I am inclined to agree with you, Marius. For a long time, I never placed much credence in the Doc Thorne legend until I saw one of the landmarks mentioned in the story, that of the rock outcropping that resembled the erect "member" of a stallion. It was very unmistakable.

But more importantly it was in the right place- in the proximity of the entrance to the canyon where the two soldiers got lost. That makes me think that the Doc Thorne picked up his gold in close proximity to the LDM if not from it, itself, before the Apache buried it for good.
 

markmar

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I am inclined to agree with you, Marius. For a long time, I never placed much credence in the Doc Thorne legend until I saw one of the landmarks mentioned in the story, that of the rock outcropping that resembled the erect "member" of a stallion. It was very unmistakable.

But more importantly it was in the right place- in the proximity of the entrance to the canyon where the two soldiers got lost. That makes me think that the Doc Thorne picked up his gold in close proximity to the LDM if not from it, itself, before the Apache buried it for good.


My opinion is how doc Thorne gold was from the LDM " placer " . In Bark's notes version , Thorne also saw and the inclined shaft , which in Waltz/Herman stories was the " quartz " mine . From what we know , Waltz said how only the " quartz " mine have found concealed , and the " placer " with the tunnel bellow , was concealed by him . As I wrote in another thread some time ago , the " quartz " mine is about 75 yards afar from the " placer " mine , with the first to be almost in the middle of the small valley , and the second at the lip of the cliff/valley .

Here i want to add how the Two Soldiers mine is not the same with the LDM , but is another mine wich has the same characteristics with the LDM " placer " , like a pit with a tunnel bellow . The Two Soldiers mine is the same mine with that from the Haywood story and is about two miles afar from the LDM . For the instance , here i should tell you how the Haywood map is about 50% accurate , and I wouldn't expect a Native to would give away the place to a " whites " , betraying his clan and his vows . We are lucky because there exist another maps which lead to the same mine .

The impression how Joe Deering found the same mine with the two soldiers is also wrong . Joe Deering found the LDM " placer " mine because the " quartz " mine was concealed and couldn't see it . The " " quartz " mine is almost in the way to the " placer " mine .
 
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Eldo

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There have been so many storys about Waltz and his "Mine", that it is hard to find the facts of the LDM, at least IMO.
Fact he went to the Queen Creek Trading Post for supplies when he had Wiesner as his partner.
Fact he Homesteaded his house just outside of then Phoenix by the Salt River.
Fact he was buried in a Pauper's Grave after he died.
Fact the people that should have had him buried with a marker from the "Gold under his bed", did not.
Fact people that tried to follow him when he went out to his "Mine", either lost his tracts or never came back to Phoenix.
So where is the evidence that he had a really rich mine?
Some of his "Stories" said it was a vein 8 inches wide and a foot or more across.
Was any of his gold under the bed solid gold? To confirm his tale of how rich the mine was?
The Matchbox is pretty but it does not give evidence of a vein that wide, again IMO.
Forget the books about him and his mine, look for facts after he found his mine.
Newspaper articles from back then, assay reports, him buying supplies with gold anything that would show that he had really found a high paying mine. These are what I would believe as facts about his mine.
OK waiting for answers from the people that have done real research on Jacob Waltz. Books don't count unless they included facts that can be proved.
Let the fun begin.

"Gotta Look Through The EYE Of The Needle"
 

Eldo

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Oroblanco

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That's what I mean. The matchbox is at least tangible evidence, whether or not it's pertinent to the Waltz saga.

The Tucson witness. Who was he? Where was his place of business? When did the sale occur? Who bought the ore? Did he know Waltz enough to ID him? How much ore was sold? How rich was it? Is there evidence of the shipping, assay, etc? When answers to these types of questions can be reasonably be verified, then one might agree that Waltz had access to good ore. If the Tucson incident could be verified, then you have the prickly question of whether it was a covert sale of recently mined ore, or a sale of his previously cached ore.

I don't have the book handy but could get it if needed, it was actually several witnesses not just one, John D. Mitchell named them, and I do remember checking on whether they were alive at the time and two of them (at least, could not confirm or disprove the third) were indeed alive when Mitchell's article first appeared in Desert! magazine. If he had been making that up, they could have easily alerted the public to it. The amount was not known other than it was a burro load, sold for a few hundred dollars on the spot. If you have Mitchell's second book (I think it is the 2 nd) you can pull up the details easily. These three men attempted to trail Waltz back to his mine but lost him in the attempt, which is echoed by other attempts. This is probably not enough for our skeptics, like I said this is enough solid foundation in my opinion, to at least research the matter further. It is usually ignored by the Dutch hunters who focus solely on the Sims Ely/Bark Notes and Holmes Manuscript as source materials, which unfortunately both seem to have the 'taint' of the unrelated lost mine stories having been well blended into the Waltz story. Even Dick Holmes compared notes with Julia Thomas before either the Ely/Bark version or Holmes manuscript had been published, so cross-tainting is very possible. Plus most folks would consider John D. Mitchell as the worst kind of source imaginable, since he obtained virtually all of his information by simply talking to local people and other lost mine/treasure hunters, Indians etc.

Amen on the Doc Thorne mine, I had pretty well classed it among the 'fabulous' (fictional) mines until fairly recently, after learning there actually was such a doctor named Thorne, and recently seeing something that matches a detail mentioned in one of the earliest accounts ever published about the Thorne mine. I won't say what the detail was, other than it shocked the heck out of me to see it, and I am not referring to the 'stallion's organ' thing. I now believe the Thorne account is based on a factual incident, which would explain why he would bother to go looking for the mine himself. Most fiction tellers spreading tales of a fictional treasure/mine are not willing to go hunt for it themselves.

SDCFIA also wrote
Well, I had a good camera in my pack the day I saw that big bird. Trouble is, when you're surprised by something so unusual, you're mesmerized, confused and a bit frozen. By the time I even thought about my camera, the event was over and done with. If you find yourself in a similar situation, I would hope that your results might vary.

Oh I can empathize with that reaction completely. You are so surprised at seeing something extraordinary, you don't want to take your eyes off it! You don't want to move even. Almost as bad is having a camera with the wrong kind of film in it, not a big problem today with the digital age but some years ago I ran into a rather amazing fight between two huge Bighorn rams here in the Black Hills. I managed to get my wits enough to dig out the camera, but unfortunately it was loaded with 100 speed film, fine for landscapes but worse than worthless for action and every shot was nothing but a blur. I still hope that someone will get a good shot of those big flying crypto-critters, someone with better reflexes than I have!

Please do continue,
:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2: :coffee2:
 
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