What are these bone sticks?

[larson1951]

I have never found a complete one
they are all broke
2 groups with front and back of each group
they are not knife handles
what is your opinion?
anyone got one?

 

[larson1951]

somebody told me that these are "warrior sticks"
so what is a warrior stick??
the design repeated on the second group reminds me of feathers atatched to a spear shaft
the first group design looks like the capital letter 'M' but they can't be using the alphabet like ours
I am still hoping someone will chime in with some info
I havenever found a complete one in 30 yrs
as strong as these are you would think they should not all be broken
it almost makes me think they were broke intentionally
hasn't anyone seen one of these before?

 

[ivan salis]

medicene man --tossing sticks --used for fortune telling / visions --- one use only they must be made new each time afterwards they are broken in two --- if you removed then from their "holy place" where the medicene man used them to see his visions -- I pity you .(a world of hurt will come down on your head until replaced )-- P.S. When replacing it add a "gift" of a bit of tobbacco to appease the spirits .-- tobbacco was a "highly prized" gift in the indain world of old.

go ahead -- laugh at me ( I know you want to) --but please remember what I'm telling you.

 

[GL]

I think your field used to be a mound. Or three. Or ten.
I see no other explanation for all the exquisite bone artifacts. I am jealous and wish I could wander through your field looking down.

 

[pickaway]

WoW...

 

[larson1951]

GL, all of the spots I have found artifacts on are flat
I have been told corn was farmed a hundred years ago

Ivan, I am not laughing about your info, info it is what I wanted
I took all of these pieces and returned them in a scattered fashion like they were
I am married into the Sioux race and have great respect for what you told me
As far as the tobacco offerings, I have made dozens of these offerings over the years and will continue to do so
nobody should laugh at your words
I have had my wifes brother make tobacco ties for me and I have left them sometimes tied to a small bush or tree
sometimes the spirits have taken one; now someone might be laughing at me but I know that Ivan isn't one of them
maybe it was bird that took one, but maybe the bird was a spirit
thanks much Ivan

 

[Pinellas Man]

Larson, you are showing some finds that I have never seen before , keep them coming.

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

Larson, I really am enjoying your post. I do disagree with throwing them out. I am all about respecting these peoples burials, of their loved ones. I do however think that if it is a discarded piece that you have every right to pick it up , and keep it for study purposes. Its a part of our history, and shouldn't be just discarded because of superstition. I really feel that was the wrong thing to do, but this is just my opinion. If you threw those out, then how do you justify not throwing all your engraved bone out? I really feel like you were OK to have found and kept those very rare pieces, and I seriously doubt that you were in any grave danger for having preserved history, and no one really knows what they did with them....... I know it was your choice, but it does upset me. Like I said I have great respect, as I have Indian heritage in my family also. John

 

[ivan salis]

being part native american --yes there are folks who know exactly what they did with them --(there called native american tribes)--- it seems you do not understand the "real" reason for returning these items is not superstition but rather religous respect ****-- would you go to a church in europe and remove their "holy" icons ? and feel ok with that ? --these items are a part of a deeply religious act and as such are not your ordainary arrow head or common everyday native american object./ item ---thus their "special" status --- I am all for keeping normal everyday native american items --- but "sacred" items and burail items --no way jose.

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

Ivan, Like I said. I do have Indian in me. My grandpa was dern near full blooded. I do respect them. They worshiped a lot of things Stars, trees, the sun, etc, etc. They were very spiritual. My Buddy's wife is full blooded Indian, she told me that she did not pick up the bird points because they were used to kill people. She believed it was wrong. I myself have picked up hundreds, and have a buddy who has picked up hundreds of birdies. We are both fine and healthy and life is great. I don't tell the Mders to throw their old ship wreck finds away because people died on the ship that wrecked with the treasure. I would also like to see the research that you have, Maybe I am missing something. Has their been several cases of people finding these artifacts, and having death occur from it? Larson is finding a lot of engraved bone pieces, how can you single out some, and not all. I have a very large library of books , Magazines, Archy Journals, and I have never read anything that would make me tell someone to throw away this precious history. Like I said this is my strong opinion, and that's it. John

 

[SoIll]

I was under the impression that those artifacts were used in woven basket making. I'm with flintfinder, show your references. I don't think you should throw them out larson. Think of it like this; would those people rather see someone valuing their heritage, or out of respect smash them to oblivion?

Anyway I haven't commented much on your posts, but I've seen them all. You are very lucky to have ground like that. I was wondering are you bottom or chisel plowing? What do you plant up there? Just curious.

 

[ivan salis]

look under indain shaman practices --- yes as a indain you should know that some items are "sacred" thus not to be messed with --burail areas and "magic" items used by shaman's are just such items and places --legend says those that distrub such places and items are "cursed" -- so be it.

religious items are quite differant than "normal" everyday items

 

[ohioaxeman]

i have my religious beliefs, and also have blackfoot blood in my veins! if you knew you was digging in a burial, shame on you! if i'm walking and its laying there on the surface... (MINE)!

 

[ivan salis]

I do not and can not "tell" anyone to do anything --- I merely inform folks that certain items (like the bones) are religious items used in religious rites of native americans * --and that according to legend --that those that disturb items like those can be "cursed"for messing with said items --

please note --- I can not "make" anyone "do" anything --that is outside of both my rights and ability --- I can and did merely inform him what he had. ---- what they choose to do with it is their bussiness -- so be it.

he asked what is it? -- I told him what he had and what they meant --it was his find --and his choice to return them not out of "fear" but rather "respect" .

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

Hey my point is this. they find civil war relics, swords all kinds of American artifact that people have probably died loosing, BUT that's different somehow. I don't believe that any one should tell someone that is just surface finding that he is cursed, and he better throw it all away. That's all I'm saying, and I would like to see your research on this matter. John

 

[ivan salis]

read under "native american shaman practices" -- these are bones thrown and read to predict the future * --they are used but once and broken after use -- thus they are one use only --they are "religiuos items" as such -- and not to lightly triffled with.

 

[ivan salis]

please --google --native american shaman -- "throwing the bones" -- learn a bit and have a nice day.

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

Ivan, I could write some things about plane wrecks , train wrecks, ships sinking, etc. What proof do you have besides word of mouth stuff, Like i SAID my buds wife is full blooded Indian and I respect her, but she says that picking up bird points is a bad, bad thing. I've been doing it for years, and I know from my experience that I'm not doing anything wrong. How do you know that these are sacred? How does the guy that wrote your article know? Where is his proof, and how do you know among all of us. I just wonder what your education is on this? I hunt on a regular basis and I don't find that stuff around my parts, but it did make me get in my books. I have never seen any grave goods that resemble Larson's finds.(that's a good thing). Look at all the religious pendants that are found on t-net, Have you ever told anyone to throw that away I hunt these artifacts, and I love it when a legit guy comes forward with museum quality stuff. It urkes me to no end that you told him to rid hisself of these or be cursed. that's wrong, How do you know? John P.s I worked very hard today, and I'm wore out. I would love to debate it further, but no way. Hey their are a lot of you members that have your own opinion. I would like to hear it. How can you say one engraved bone is bad mojo , and the others are good I really dont understand that. Oh well going to bed.

 

[ivan salis]

how does any one know anything ? easy its past down knowledge of the elders that how -- most indain tribes did not have a written langauge per se -- but rather a "oral" history tradition --stories told and retold again and agian -- later on the some of the "whitemen" recorded some of those tales to the best of their translation abilities -- there is a lot that is "known" in the indain culture that is not recorded in the whites history books --there are no indain "10 commandments" carved into stone -- but there is native logic and respect of the dead (thus "holy" burail mounds and burail areas are "off limits") as are religious "holy" objects.--which is mere common sense.

however everyday used common items --sure have at em --arrowheads ,spear points , dropped trade beads , trade rings , ect.

 

[larson1951]

dear Soill, I am using a john deere model 100 chisel plow with 18" sweeps(duckfeet)it is set up 12 feet wide
I pull it with a 1954 john deere model 70 or an older john deere model A
The owners of the field will not let me set the hydraulic stroke control at more than a depth of 4 inches
we are trying to keep the soil black for a few more years
the best artifact field is 40 acres
we are doing this to get rid of the "creeping Jenny"(field bindweed)
the best artifact hunting comes after I have run the duckfoot over the field and thunderstorm comes with 1 or so inches of rain