What is it, why, and how -New Photos -Updated - The Answer -2nd Coin added

[Don in SJ]

Of course it is a 1798 Large Cent, but hmmmmmmn, what is that on the right side? How did it get there and why?

This coin found by my son was found at a site that the newest coin found there 1805 Draped Bust Half Cent by me. By the looks of the site, it was abandoned in the early 1800's and forgotten about, so whoever and however the mark got on the coin is a mystery.

I have had one suggestion on how it it was done but I would love to see it done to prove the theory.

It is a unusual find.

Don

 

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[dg39]

Re: What is it, why, and how

raised mark? Mint flaw or counterfit?

 

[PBK]

Re: What is it, why, and how

Is that "+" raised rather than incuse? If so, perhaps someone cut it into the die to mark it for cancellation/destruction.

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: What is it, why, and how

Is that "+" raised rather than incuse? If so, perhaps someone cut it into the die to mark it for cancellation/destruction.

It is raised I have been told that it is impossible for that to have been on the die....
Don

 

[PBK]

Re: What is it, why, and how

Don't see why it would be impossible. Obviously, it wasn't!

Could be accidental damage, unauthorized tampering, or a deliberate alteration or defacing of the die for some reason— as I've said, perhaps to mark it as defective or discontinued, and to be destroyed.

Intriguing, whatever the reason.

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: What is it, why, and how

On the coin forum, there is an individual who evidently is well respected, I believe the name M Schmidt and his "theory" was that the metal was "pushed" with an object from the surface of the original coin to form the raised cross. He said no way could it had been struck that way. I guess if it was it would be $$$ even in its corroded shape, which by the way the reverse is bad..

That is the only answer I got at all. Again, remembering this had to happen no later than the early 1800's.

Don

Thoughts?

 

[montepollock]

Re: What is it, why, and how

It would seem to be a Mint error,The only way I can think to alter it after release would be drilling a small hole into the rim and using a stylus to push out the metal as has sometimes been done to fake mintmarks,or by brazing the extra metal in place.However an old copper coin would be too fragile for the push method,So that would seem to indicate a mint variety or as has alredy been suggested deliberate defacement of the die.
Most intriguing find.

 

[Mainedigger]

Re: What is it, why, and how

Made by someone after issue with a low amperage welding rod? brazing rod?

 

[Skrimpy]

Re: What is it, why, and how

Why not ask someone at the mint? I bet they have a historian/archavist that might have an idea or historical note that might let on what the heck that thing is.

 

[MiddenMonster]

Re: What is it, why, and how

It would seem to be a Mint error,The only way I can think to alter it after release would be drilling a small hole into the rim and using a stylus to push out the metal as has sometimes been done to fake mintmarks

There were no mint marks on this particlular coin:

http://www.coinfacts.com/large_cent...798_large_cents/1798_large_cent_varieties.htm
"Mintmarks: None (all 1798 Large Cents were struck at the Philadelphia Mint)"

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: What is it, why, and how

I just sent a couple photos of the coin to one of the directors at ANR/Stacks who is a friend of mine and hopefully he will render a good explanation or at minimum have some of his co-workers assist in an explanation on the cross.

Going away for a day or two but hope to post the reply when I return....

Don

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: What is it, why, and how -The Answer

Wow, I got a very fast reply from ANR/Stacks, so here is their answer and I accept that fully.

Hi Don --

Just about every professional numismatist can remember the coin that taught them what this phenomenon is: knife cutting.

If you take a very sharp knife to a coin, it will leave a very narrow scratch with a mound of metal on one side. Think of what a snowblower does when you first drive it through a snow-covered driveway, with an area of no snow and a heap of snow on one side.

When the coin wears, the mound of medal rounds off and leans over a bit, leaving this exact raised artifact with no trace of the slice that created it.

I showed the image -- with no preparation -- to a colleague here and said "hey Jim, what is it?" Instantly he said "a knife cut!" and told me the story of being fooled into thinking a similar cut was a die crack early in his career.

So that's what you've got. It happens all the time on large cents, and every time I see one I think of the Cutco guy on TV who slices the pennies in half. Perhaps this was a knife test from 1810?

Keeping finding good stuff and stay in touch!

 

[PBK]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

Interesting— although if it's so common, it seems odd that no one here on the forum has ever seen one before.

 

[Angelo]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

Check this site. Coin with raised flaw or scratch??

http://staff.jccc.net/scarr/Early_Dates/1798.htm

Coin # S167 (2) Obverse. Click on the coin to enlarge.

Tony

 

[PBK]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

Check this site. Coin with raised flaw or scratch??

http://staff.jccc.net/scarr/Early_Dates/1798.htm

Coin # S167 (2) Obverse. Click on the coin to enlarge.

Tony

That one might be a die crack.

 

[Angelo]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

You are correct!

Look at the other side of the coin and the crack does go all the way through and there is an intersection of the crack that forms a cross.

Do you think that the coin being analysed here could have the beginnings of a dye crack?

Just guessing.

 

[PBK]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

Don't think so. Neither of the lines extends to the rim. Even if they did, that would be an extremely unlikely configuration for intersecting cracks. It's either a scratched coin, as explained in Don's last post, or a scratched die.

 

[Skrimpy]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

This begs one question...why was this scratched in this manner. My thought...(this is all speculation mind you)...I have heard that some people used to mark their coins (usually with their initials) for security reasons (ie if one turned up they were being stolen from) but that brings about a problem. If you mark your coins how do you know that a coin you find in circulation is stolen and not one you placed in circulation? My thought...people would mark their coins that they had in a cache, so that if one turned up they would know someone found their cache. I've never heard of a large cent cache but would think eventually someone might find one. 1 Penny went a long way in the early 1800s. Where did you say you were hunting when you found this coin

 

[TreasureTales]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

Hey, I'm impressed that Don in SJ has such a handy friend. From now on, any weird coin anomaly questions should go straight to Don and his buddy--the professional numismatist!!!

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: What is it, why, and how -Updated - The Answer

This begs one question...why was this scratched in this manner. My thought...(this is all speculation mind you)...I have heard that some people used to mark their coins (usually with their initials) for security reasons (ie if one turned up they were being stolen from) but that brings about a problem. If you mark your coins how do you know that a coin you find in circulation is stolen and not one you placed in circulation? My thought...people would mark their coins that they had in a cache, so that if one turned up they would know someone found their cache. I've never heard of a large cent cache but would think eventually someone might find one. 1 Penny went a long way in the early 1800s. Where did you say you were hunting when you found this coin

Very interesting and yes, have seen caches posted where the coins were marked, usually a ugly scratch or notch. But, since you brought this up, I found out from my son, who found the cross large cent that he said he found a second Large Cent within a few feet of the first one and that it also had a similar cross on it but it was not a raised one like the one I posted. He said this one definitely looks like a sharp object gouge, (knife) just as my friends for ANR/Stacks have stated. I do not remember him telling me this, since I am sure I was not with him when either coin was found there.
And yes, we have pounded the site to death and not even another button has come from that site the last few times it has been hit by us. But, I just might be motivated enough to give it another try very shortly.

I am hoping to post a photo on this thread of the second coin, which again, I do not remember my son telling me about but maybe he did, tough gettin old.

Don