What is the lead disk and the plug?

[BamaBill]

In the photo is a small lead disk that kind of looks like a seal. Next to it is a round piece that appears to have a paper or thin cloth wrapped around it and it has a smooth metal disk on one end and is rough at the other. The lead disk is 1/2" in diameter and so is the paper wrapped "cylinder". The pistol ball in the upper right hand is for scale. These items came from a Civil War site that has given up a couple dozen pistol balls and a few minnies

 

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[BioProfessor]

From what I've learned about lead seals here in Holland is that they usually have something stamped into them. Probably with the tool used to attach them. They should wash up pretty easy. If there is a mark or number on the lead, it is most likely a seal used to make sure the item was not opened during transit.

Daryl

 

[Kiros32]

In the photo is a small lead disk that kind of looks like a seal. Next to it is a round piece that appears to have a paper or thin cloth wrapped around it and it has a smooth metal disk on one end and is rough at the other. The lead disk is 1/2" in diameter and so is the paper wrapped "cylinder". The pistol ball in the upper right hand is for scale. These items came from a Civil War site that has given up a couple dozen pistol balls and a few minnies

You sound like an educated man, but I will ask anyway...the "metal disk" looks like the end of an old shotgun cartridge. Have you ruled that out?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I have seen small pin-fire cartridges that have a brass base and a paper tube.

The Lefaucheaux System goes as far back as 1835 and the famous LeMat Revolver used it. The revolvers used an all metal cartridge, but shotguns used a paper tube.

The three cases to the left in this image are pinfire.

 

[BamaBill]

I really don't think its part of a modern shotgun shell casing. I've seen plenty of those. I'm leaning toward the pin fire idea as the metal piece has faint markings on it and could be the one on the left, in your photo with the London marking. Who was using the LeMat revolver during the war? Does anyone have photos of CW period shotgun cartridges? This site is shaping up to look like an encounter between mounted calvary that had come down the road and some guys camped in a clearing. I just haven't figured out which side (Union or CSA) the calvary was on and which side the guys camped in the field were on.

 

[Foilman]

The lead piece looks like a small caliber bullet point that hit something hard and it flattened. I think it is some thing patch and ball and the cloth is the patch. I don't know about the other piece maybe it is unrelated. Just a thought I am no expert.

 

[BamaBill]

The lead piece looks like a small caliber bullet point that hit something hard and it flattened. I think it is some thing patch and ball and the cloth is the patch. I don't know about the other piece maybe it is unrelated. Just a thought I am no expert.

We found three of those lead disks that are identical and its just a little too perfectly round to be anything but a deliberate shape. When magnified it looks like a P in the center of the disk.

 

[Foilman]

Rimfire cartridges often have a letter stamped on the bottom. Hey maybe there was a cartridge like a rimfire with no rim, or a complete charge that had a metal base but no sides to the casing, unlike modern cartridge casings.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

. Who was using the LeMat revolver during the war? Does anyone have photos of CW period shotgun cartridges? This site is shaping up to look like an encounter between mounted calvary that had come down the road and some guys camped in a clearing. I just haven't figured out which side (Union or CSA) the calvary was on and which side the guys camped in the field were on.

I just mentioned the LeMat as a reference to the ignition system. Loved by Confederate Calvary and Navy officers when they could get them (none shots plus a second smoothbore barrel in the middle). They used a 9mm metallic pinfire case - about 1/3" across. The discs you have may or may not be shotshell bases (12 to 20mm, or 1/2" to 3/4" around). The pinfire shotguns might have been used by Confederate calvary or guards on picket duty. I have no knowledge that this ever occurred. Unlikely any Union troops would have or have used one. It would pretty much have to have been a privately purchased weapon or one liberated for service as the huge majority of service arms on both sides were muzzleloaders. Pinfires were expensive beyond the means of the lowly soldiers. But, never forget, the war was fought on private land and folks lived there before, during and after the war. The Confederacy was also a "pick-up" service and local civilians and militia occasionally joined in with their own arms, while the Union almost entirely issue gear to professional soldiers.

 

[Foilman]

If it is in fact from a muzzleloader, anything and everything could have been put in it.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Hi..... it could be a bottle stop we often find them here in the UK they date back to the middle ages, they must have been a lot of lead poisoning back in those days, if yours comes from a civil war site they might have used lead as a bottle stop for a quick fix solution, just a thought TK :P

 

[irbaddadjoe]

Could it be off top of old tin barn nails ? They had a lead cap that would seal leaks when hammered. Me and my brother used to climb on barn a peel these lead caps off and throw at each other. Once peeled they looked similiar to your disk.

 

[morgan70]

. Who was using the LeMat revolver during the war? Does anyone have photos of CW period shotgun cartridges? This site is shaping up to look like an encounter between mounted calvary that had come down the road and some guys camped in a clearing. I just haven't figured out which side (Union or CSA) the calvary was on and which side the guys camped in the field were on.

I just mentioned the LeMat as a reference to the ignition system. Loved by Confederate Calvary and Navy officers when they could get them (none shots plus a second smoothbore barrel in the middle). They used a 9mm metallic pinfire case - about 1/3" across. The discs you have may or may not be shotshell bases (12 to 20mm, or 1/2" to 3/4" around). The pinfire shotguns might have been used by Confederate calvary or guards on picket duty. I have no knowledge that this ever occurred. Unlikely any Union troops would have or have used one. It would pretty much have to have been a privately purchased weapon or one liberated for service as the huge majority of service arms on both sides were muzzleloaders. Pinfires were expensive beyond the means of the lowly soldiers. But, never forget, the war was fought on private land and folks lived there before, during and after the war. The Confederacy was also a "pick-up" service and local civilians and militia occasionally joined in with their own arms, while the Union almost entirely issue gear to professional soldiers.

I was always under the impression that the lemat was a 9 shot .41 cap&ball with a 20bore center barrel fired with a perc. cap also

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

The LeMat was designed by an American from New Orleans. He started off making them in percussion (.41 or .42 cal.) and percussion was the method once the war broke out and production was moved to Great Britian. Then demand far exceeded abilities (it is a complicated design) and France and Belgium firms were making alternate versions. At least three calibers for the revolver and several variations in the central smoothbore barrel. I'm pretty sure some of the French and Belgian made LeMats were chambered for the Lefaucheux pinfire cartridges. Maybe I'm getting it confused with the LeFaucheux Army and Navy models both the Union and Confederacy used.

Here's a Belgian 11mm (non-percussion - about .43 caliber) LeMat with 15mm shotgun (about 21 gauge).

THE PINFIRE SYSTEM In the early 1830's, Casimir Lefaucheux patented the first successful pinfire cartridge for shotguns. For 150 years the shotgun shell stayed basically the same, using paper cartridge (now plastic) with brass base with the only major improvement was the changing from pinfire ignition system to center fire. After Casimir's death in 1852, his son Eugene carried on the business with great success with military revolvers for the French, Spanish, Danish, Italian, Swiss, Swedish and Norwegian armed forces, and was used by the Federal troops during the American Civil War. The Pinfire was the 4th most commonly used Union revolver in the Civil War, surpassed in numbers only by Colt, Remington and Starr. Civilian Pinfires were made in 12mm, 9mm, 7mm, 5mm and 2mm. Although the use of most Pinfire guns died out by the 1890's, the 2mm pinfire is still made today in novelty charm pistols. http://www.ruble-enterprises.com/Bronze_pinfire_guns.htm

Anyhow, the disc he found with paper (not the lead disc) would not be a revolver round, but from a shotgun. IF that is even what it even is.

 

[timbuckII]

" I'm pretty sure some of the French and Belgian made LeMats were chambered for the Lefaucheux pinfire cartridges."


You are correct but I do not think they were ready for use during the War of Northern Aggression.

TC