What to do about Holyfield? Input needed

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

I had a few idle moments and learned the location and name and address of this poster. Since he had such a poor opinion of map dowsers I checked his area for the nearest large treasure. That found the question is should I let it lay until I have time to go there and retrieve it myself or should I open the floor to any list member who would travel to Michigan, retrieve the treasure and take pictures for holyfield. I'll give you the address so you can mail them anonymously. I would get my usual share of trover's portion and I expect the person selected to operate legally and obtain permission to make the search. Judges' decisions are final but just wondered what you all thought would be fair. We're not depriving Holyfield of anything. He doesn't believe that dowsing can be used to find treasure. Let me hear from you, Siegfried Schlagrule

 

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[Fred]

Interesting proposal! But I am thinling that if he wasn't involved that he might still deny(sp?) that it ever happened or existed. Fred

 

[FLOYD MANN]

HI SIEGFRIED !!

If you don't get any takers from this forum---you might consider posting on a Michigan forum ? Is your dowsed cache worth a drive from Utah ? ( Where I live ). Even if someone retrieves your cache---doubters can say it was rigged, a fake, etc. You probably won't convince Holyfield---but as a last resort ( if you get no takers & you don't plan on retrieving it yourself )--you can send the map to him & see if you make a believer of him ??

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

What to Do? - Addendum

I should have said that private or public votes will be tabulated and that I will report the tally and decision I make on line. Fred, As to whether he believes or not it doesn't matter. Words mean things and there are consequences to our actions. That is why I insist on an honest legal recovery. If we all snuck in every place we knew about the jackboots would really ban detectors. Floyd, If there are equal proposals and one is from Michigan the out of stater will prevail as less likely to be a Holyfield friend. My last trip to Michigan was sometime before 1985 and that was Grand Rapids area. Easily confirmed by anyone with a pendulum and the dowsing ability of a zygote. Regards, Siegfried

 

[Chiz]

I will be going to Alpena, Michigan in the next month or so....

8)

 

[lab rat]

Careful, now, maybe -I- have the dowsing ability of a zygote.

It seems to me that if someone is a confirmed non-believer, his mind is made up regardless of whatever 'proof' you may (even under strictly legitimate conditions) offer. How can you work through the conditions in such a way that all evidence is irrefutable?

However, as a curious onlooker, I am interested in seeing how this plays out. I'm not convinced either way, and perhaps you may be interested in pursuing this for the benefit of zygotes like myself.

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

zygote comment

Howdy, That reference was to the ability to determine whether or not my last trip to Michigan was before 1985 as stated or since then as suspected. The point being is that very few people plant a fake treasure 18 years before they need it "near" a sceptics home. If I have not been in the state I could not personally have planted anything there. Now to continue that sceptic thread you would have to postulate a "vast right-wing conspiracy" of hoaxers all at my beck and call. Or at least one real good buddy who would sneak up there for gas money. None of that is true. Finally, I have no need or desire to convince anyone or demonstrate anything. I quite simply want a read on how to proceed. So far we have alot of interested onlookers and one volunteer to dig it up and take the pictures. Thank you for your input, Siegfried Schlagrule

 

[Chiz]

like I said.... I will be going to Alpena within the next couple months... i'll gladly be a witness or dig it up....

8)

 

[boomer]

vary interesting

utah, boomer

 

[Lowbatts]

Personal?

This whole affair is far too personal when someone posts something about having anyone else's personal information. Any personal info is anything but hard to get in this day and age. No mystery there. If you live in Indiana and want to challenge someone in Michigan you certainly don't have a long drive to do so personally rather than making an online spectacle of it.

That said, I would be glad as a neighbor of any dowsers in Indiana to recover any treasure here in the Elgin area, with video support of said recoveries, and give the lion's share to that dowser(s).

In particular I am talking about more one or more safe(s) in the Fox River between South Elgin and Dundee, Illinois. One safe lost in a flood, the other tossed in by bad guys and presumably unopened.

Furthermore, the sight where Secret Service Founder James Pinkerton (of the Pinkerton Agency) confronted the counterfieter's that propelled him into public service might also prove interesting. The story is most of the works of the counterfeiters were destroyed and controversy remains on the exact location. It was either an island in the river or the location of a civil war training camp and cavalry outpost.

Another site of possible interest, an island downstream that Al Capone stayed on. His outfit owned a place called the Hideaway which is now a nice diner on the river. This was a remote sight then and is still hard to find for outsiders unless they are on the river. Now did Al Capone actually get crazy and toss gold coins and silver dollars in the river there or not? Just local legend unproven, but the water there is wading depth.

There is also a grave of two unknown soldiers from Winfield Scott's 1832 pursuit of Blackhawk across the river there. That is where they crossed the Fox River in pursuit. Of course Blackhawk would not have come that way, the Pottawatomies would have had his scalp.

At almost the same point, a Cent Ill bridge crosses the river. In October 1894 several miles west a train robbery took place near Water Station Q, just east of Elburn. The mail car was blown to bits ala that Butch Cassidy/Sundance Kid movie, a bundle of the money from the safe was actually recovered two feet into the ground at the time. One of the money bags, emptied, was found tucked into the trestle support over the river indicating the bad guys went back that way on their escape.

Now would you require old maps or current maps, or would a combination be best?

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

To Malak and anyone else with the same question. Try the archives at digital-dowsers@yahoogroups.com It is free to join and free to use. Siegfried

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

religion and dowsing

Dowsers run the gamut from the profane to the profound in religious beliefs. No one can argue that the Spaniards found a whale of a lot of mines and they did it by dowsing. Many early satanists were also accomplished dowsers. Most folks would say that Moses getting water after striking a rock with a rod is a direct reference to dowsing. Field Marshall Erwin Rommel had control of every waterhole and oasis in North Africa until a hazel tree was air frieghted in so an american dowser could find water for our troups and break the back of the Afrika Korps. I've had friends use dowsing to determine whether or not they would have "a good time" on a first date and if the answer was no they would cancel the date. Some rock-ribbed religionists try to ban dowsing by quoting the scripture where it says no man shall know the day and hour of his passing. Some religious dowsers say that just means don't try to tell the future and the past and the present is okay. Everyone simply "learns" what he already believes about the metaphysical qiuestions. I know of no dowsers and very few psychics who claim to have used their ability to win the lottery. I know many that have tried. The usual reason given is that even a true statement about the future is immediately subject to the actions of millions of events that transpire from the time of the prediction to the event horizon. Basically it renders your odds to 50-50. The longer the time to pass the worse your chances are. Dowsing the next card or the next roulette ball might be possible if you were only going red or black. More than that you wouldn't be fast enough. Don't forget to pick your target and let me know. As to spirit guides some believe and others don't. Regards, Siegfried

 

[Lowbatts]

Malak, I have an Uncle who was a water witcher until he had a growth removed from his brain. He claims after the surgery he could no longer dowse if he was on a bridge over the river. Plenty of familial support for his claims as well. Anyway I picked a metal detector out for him a year and a half ago and that is his new lifestyle.
I remain a skeptic pending empirical proof on my part but again, I would have to have a map that gets close enough to an actual treasure site to make that a reality.

 

[Carl-NC]

Re: religion and dowsing

No one can argue that the Spaniards found a whale of a lot of mines and they did it by dowsing.

Why can't that be argued? What historical evidence is there, that the Spanish dowsed for mines?

- Carl

 

[blazen70]

I was going to ask the same questions, Carl. I believe the Spaniards did discover a few mines but the majority of them were pre-existing and shown to them by the Native Americans. Wether or not the Spaniards or Native Americans dowsed... I don't know. Just curious where you got your info from, Siegfried. -Robert-

 

[Carl-NC]

From what I've read, most or all of the mines the Spaniards "found", were a result of "dowsing" the natives. The overwhelming dowsing tools of choice, were the sword and the axe. I've never read any historical account of the Spanish successfully dowsing for mines -- it seems this has become part of treasure folklore.

- Carl

 

[Chiz]

just look at the source..... don't think anything else needs to be said....

8)

 

[Bill]

I think a lot needs to be said.

“As early as 1511 Spanish mining laws had been formulated for the new world. Mining had provided a large part of the Spanish economy for centuries. Spanish miners had long been employed as supervisors and engineers at the rich mines of Saxony and Briton, and even before that at those of the Roman Empire. Their methods were primitive by modern standards, employing the use of dowsing, pendulums and dip needles, yet it can’t be denied that the richest ore veins ever found in New Spain and New Mexico were located by those methods. By their own records, incomplete and often falsified to avoid paying the Royal Fifth, from 1492 to 1820, they shipped more than ten billion dollars worth of bullion to Spain, more gold than was possessed by all other nations combined.
In an Arabic manuscript dated before the time of Mohammed, it is written:’When the Queen of Sheba came to visit King Soloman, she had among her train diviners who dowsed for gold.’
An early English book states:’ The practice of dowsing in England has been used for a very long time. One of the first references to dowsing was recorded in the fifteenth century when German dowsers were employed to locate some lost tin mines in Cornwall.”
De Re Metallica, written in 1555 by George Bauer (Georgius Agricola) was to become the miners bible for the next 250 years. “Agricola described the use of dowsing rods for each type of metal being sought, stating miners use the forked limb of a hazel tree to locate silver, forked twigs of ash for copper and pitch pine for lead, but notes that they use rods of iron to locate gold.”

 

[Carl-NC]

Excellent!! I have a copy of De Re Metallica, so I'm familiar with that source. What are the sources for the other other three? I'm especially interested in the first quotation, which is really the only one concerned with Spanish dowsing in the Americas.

- Carl

 

[Bill]

References.

Carl, the author passed away several years ago, and I am still checking the reference material that he used. My library system here in N. Az. is small, so it is taking a little time.