WW2 German Collectibles and Black Flag from Civil War

[ArchaicAntiques]

Hello Everyone! Great to be on this site. I recently inherited some items and I wanted to see what you guys thought. Two of the items are original ballots from Hitler's election and one is called a Quantrell Flag? Most I could find is that it is from the Civil War and is not even supposed to exist because nobody has ever actually found one. Are these items rare?

 

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[Mackaydon]

AA,
Welcome to treasurenet !!
"The flag's existence raises many questions. Quantrill is not known to have carried any sort of flag; this is supported by some of his men in post-war accounts. Claims that he carried a black flag with the misspelled name "Quantrell" in red originated in popular writings of the 1880s and have no basis in fact."
Source: https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/quantrill-s-flag/10154
Don....

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Thanks for the reply! That is interesting to note, but that item have already been dated around 1853-1867. Doesn't every legend have a basis in fact?

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

I also do not know why anyone would reproduce one and there are no accounts of reproductions.

 

[RustyRelics]

I also do not know why anyone would reproduce one and there are no accounts of reproductions.

Unfortunately there are many reasons why someone would reproduce these kinds of flags. The first reason is for novelty, to create something that never really existed in a historical context, and just create it as an example of what something "could" have looked like. The second reason is to dupe beginner collectors. This is an unfortunate problem as bogus flags are being sold all the time as legitimate. I have a feeling that this is a fantasy piece that was designed as a novelty piece many years ago, and was just for display purposes unfortunately.

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

https://www.strongholdnation.co.uk/history/american-civil-war/confederate-quantrills-raiders-flag
" It has been speculated that he may have used one with his last name (in red) – emblazoned on the center. Given to him as a gift, the girl who sewed it for him misspelled his name! Quantrill was killed in action in Kentucky in 1865. The flag was not officially seen from that point forward."

The Legend of Ann E. Fickle & Quantrill's Black Flag.



It was seen before, just not after his death. It would be hard to believe that this is an original, but I don't believe a multi-millionaire who got this from another big collector would get a fake. From what I understand, it has been passed around a long time.

 

[xaos]

Some better closeups of the documents would help...there are at least 2 people here for Polish and probably a few on cryllic (Ukrainian?)
If the ballots are original, they are in remarkable shape for the year and method of display...

You can go online and purchase the flag....how was it dated?
The lettering doesnt look right for that time period...and it was supposed to be red letters...lettering would be stitched on not printed on?

https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/quantrill-s-flag/10154


https://civilwarren.tumblr.com/post/164294190631/the-myth-of-quantrills-black-flag-the-story-of

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Thanks for the reply! It is red, just faded. I am not really sure about the lettering, but the style of flag looks correct, and also nobody was really sure what the lettering looked like, but there are guesses. You cannot purchase this flag.

 

[Red-Coat]

The flag is a modern fantasy.

I have considerable doubt about the other items too. Compare your ballot slip to an authentic one below:



I believe this is also a non-authentic 'reproduction' for collectors, although it's arguable whether or not it was ever intended to deceive anyone. I have a large accumulation of Titanic memorabilia... tickets, menu cards and such, all printed in modern times for wall-hanging purposes. Much Nazi material falls in the same category and has been equally heavily 'reproduced'.


PS: Welcome to Tnet

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Thanks again for the reply! This particular flag has been passed from one wealthy collector to another, with the last a multi-millionaire with a huge authentic collection. I understand there are fakes but if there is one fake there are probably many or at least more than one and where are the other ones like this? What was the incentive for reproducing this flag during the Civil War? To scare people? That might get you killed.

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Thank you! I found this one online. Maybe different districts?

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Here is another one I found with similar lettering.

 

[xaos]

Actually, the mention of the Black Flag was from a book by Kit Dalton, who also rode with the James Gang....

the Black Flag is attributed to the Jesse James gang....

 

[Xraywolf]

Thanks again for the reply! This particular flag has been passed from one wealthy collector to another, with the last a multi-millionaire with a huge authentic collection. I understand there are fakes but if there is one fake there are probably many or at least more than one and where are the other ones like this? What was the incentive for reproducing this flag during the Civil War? To scare people? That might get you killed.

With alleged historical items It is always on the seller/holder to prove provenance - And being in the collections of multiple wealthy collectors is not any proof of anything.
If it is what you say it was then sure, it would be sensational - 1st big problem is, it has never been known to exist.
You say "it has already been dated" as if that statement itself doesn't need any verification ,,, I have seen it before many times, a hopeful buyer/seller who will accept no conclusion, facts or guesses other than the ones they want to hear.
Once again, the proof part is on you, if you stitch it together solidly enough you may convince others, I'm not seeing it at this point.

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Thanks for the reply. What do you believe would constitute proof? When I say that it has been dated, I mean that it is from that era and people have looked at it. Yes, it is on me to provide proof. I am not saying that it is not fake. I have a substantial collection myself and I like for things to be verified. You say that it has not been known to exist but there are several accounts of him carrying that particular flag- which disappeared after his death. I did have a post with references to what I was saying but it has not yet been approved by the moderators because it was particularly long I am guessing.

 

[RustyRelics]

What I am seeing right now is someone trying his utmost to make something authentic, when it is not. The very fact that it is being passed from collector to collector tells me that each person had his doubts about it, and wanted to get rid of it, and not have it as their pride and joy on the wall.

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Wanted to get rid of it? Or, maybe, Since it has been 100+ years since the Civil War, they each acquired them from family members of the collectors who had no idea what it was or did not care. There are more ways than one to look at it. Can you tell me your reasoning behind it being fake besides a quote from a random website? I came here looking for answers and instead found doubt and skepticism with no reasoning besides a few links. I provided some pictures for the ballots of what other people had, and I receive a bashing for my curiosity. I do not care if it is authentic, but if you are going to call it fake, where is your reasoning?

 

[Xraywolf]

Thanks for the reply and also, cool username. What do you believe would constitute proof? When I say that it has been dated, I mean that it is from that era and people have looked at it. Yes, it is on me to provide proof. I am not saying that it is not fake. I have a substantial collection myself and I like for things to be verified. You say that it has not been known to exist but there are several accounts of him carrying that particular flag- which disappeared after his death. I did have a post with references to what I was saying but it has not yet been approved by the moderators because it was particularly long I am guessing.

Seems to me all you'll ever have is legends and folklore about it, it will never be proven authentic, and best you can do it refer them to the websites and see if that convinces them.
But items like this will always lack credibility and authenticity - If you can't prove it is and I can't prove its not, its still not. [This is 3x5' ?]

 

[RustyRelics]

Wanted to get rid of it? Or, maybe, Since it has been 100+ years since the Civil War, they each acquired them from family members of the collectors who had no idea what it was or did not care. There are more ways than one to look at it. Can you tell me your reasoning behind it being fake besides a quote from a random website? I came here looking for answers and instead found doubt and skepticism with no reasoning besides a few links. I provided some pictures for the ballots of what other people had, and I receive a bashing for my curiosity. I do not care if it is authentic, but if you are going to call it fake, where is your reasoning?

Now look here. We may not be "experts" but we aren't dummies either. We know something fishy is going on the minute we see it. So far the general consensus from several different people is that these are fantasy items. You wanted answers, but only the answers that fit what you want to hear. I won't delude you by saying "congrats on these amazing artifacts!" because they are not artifacts. That flag is purely fantasy, whether you want it to be or not.

 

[ArchaicAntiques]

Now look here. We may not be "experts" but we aren't dummies either. We know something fishy is going on the minute we see it. So far the general consensus from several different people is that these are fantasy items. You wanted answers, but only the answers that fit what you want to hear. I won't delude you by saying "congrats on these amazing artifacts!" because they are not artifacts. That flag is purely fantasy, whether you want it to be or not.

I appreciate all the valid answers, and thank you for your time.