Dowsing VS Quija Boards ?

[ac385]

Interesting thread. I for one had never believed in dowsing because it made no sense to me at all and just seamed like a bunch of hocus pocus. Reading posts to TN over the last year got me involved in a dowsing conversation with my dad and I was very surprised to find out that he believes in it. When he built his first house he heard about an old timer who would come out and tell you where to drill and at what depth. The first “hit” the guy got was close to the house but he said that it was not enough for a reliable well. The second “hit” was a good distance from the house but very shallow and supposedly a great flow. When the drilling company came out they set up shop right where the old timer had his first hit and they hit water right where he said they would and it turned out to not flow fast enough. They wanted to try a few other spots but my dad decided to try and save some money so he ended up driving the well be hand in the second spot that the old timer recommended. The old timer had claimed 21 or 22 feet and sure enough, that’s when my dad had water in the pipe. Odd I know.
MD Dog brought Christianity into the question and I wonder if anyone has pursued that line of questioning when trying to prove or disprove dousing. I know that my dad had his best friend over and had him use the same stick that the old timer used and without knowing where the old timer had been was able to locate the same spot. My dad on the other hand could not make it work. My dad is a Christian and the other man is not. Is that the reason? Or maybe since my dad already knew the spot he was stopping it from working without realizing it?

Quija boards I absolutely believe in depending on how they are used. I don’t know what the manufacturers instructions are but all of my old high school and collage friends went with the, “we are trying to contact spirits” form of the quija board. I definitely believe in demons or spirits, whatever you want to call them and I believe that if you purposefully go looking for and invite those things into your life then you may actually be surprised when they show up. The same goes for ghost hunters. I know many people who have fooled around with them and nothing has happened. I also have a very close friend who does not believe in spirits or God who had what could only be described as demonic contact while using one of these. Believe me or not but it’s true.

 

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[Miner49er]

af1733,
I have located seven shipwrecks from land, and on the water, but I have NEVER, EVER located a major, lost or buried treasure on land by dowsing. In all my research, I have never been able to prove that any large, lost or buried treasure has ever been found by dowsing. That is where my research has taken me, why hasn't this been proven? What is the universal law that prevents this? I do know why many dry holes have been dug, and some of your earlier comments have been very close to the reason.
Bill
p.s. ac385, your story is similar to hundreds that I have encountered.

 

[ClonedSIM]

af1733,
I have located seven shipwrecks from land, and on the water, but I have NEVER, EVER located a major, lost or buried treasure on land by dowsing. In all my research, I have never been able to prove that any large, lost or buried treasure has ever been found by dowsing. That is where my research has taken me, why hasn't this been proven? What is the universal law that prevents this? I do know why many dry holes have been dug, and some of your earlier comments have been very close to the reason.
Bill
p.s. ac385, your story is similar to hundreds that I have encountered.

I really appreciate your honesty in this response. Have you ever tried to search for treasure, or do you have any opinion about those that claim to be able to find treasure while dowsing?

 

[Miner49er]

af1733,
I do not use dowsing to search for treasure anymore,(large, unknown, lost or buried). I do use dowsing to find AREAS of certain mineral deposits, but that is hit or miss because of mineral ionization that is present almost everywhere in the southwest. Recently all my dowsing has been confined to research, trying to find cause and effect of certain reactions to positive AND negative responses.
Bill

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont have any experience with dowsing so I will not comment there.
I have had experience with a Ouija board and it is not just a game. I believe there is something to it but I am afraid to use it again as my experiences with it were many years ago. It is something to watch that pointer piece fly all around the board spelling out sentences with just my fingertips barely touching it. What makes it work, I do not know.
I dont recommend anyone using it for any reason.
I would imagine y'all have read Marc's story.

 

[gollum]

af1733

What do you mean about disagreeing about Remote Viewing? The US Army's Stargate Project found Gen. Dozier after the Red Brigade kidnapped him. They gave his location down to the address and the exact room he was being held in Italy from their base in Maryland. They were the only reason he was rescued!

Best-Mike

 

[Miner49er]

Dowsing is a way of being conscious of sensory inputs which are not directly connected to the instinctive brain functions. For example man's sensitivity to magnetism. The organ we assume to be responsible for this sensitivity is the pineal gland . We know that the pineal is contained within the skull, but the pineal lies outside the brain, and has no direct contact with the brain nor does it have direct nerve connections. So the pineal must communicate with the lower brain through subconscious urges, and not rational thought. In the case of dowsing, clearly the subconscious brain (not mind) is, in some way, able to alter muscle tension in the shoulders and arms, by way of the ideomotor effect, causing the crossing of angle rods, and the swinging or rotation of the pendulum
Yet the same channels must also be used by other subconscious stimuli for them to be felt. Anyone who has used dowsing tools may find that the same techniques work well for psychic explorations, such as dating artifacts and map dowsing. But, although the manner of bringing the raw impulse through to conscious perception may be the same, this does not mean that the origins are the same. Dowsing may be linked to the magnetic sensitivity of the pineal, but psychic sensations may emanate from quite different organs.
Becker and Marino , who state that not all information gathered by the usual senses is 'processed at the conscious level, and there is no physiological principle that would preclude the subliminal detection of EMFs [electromagnetic fields] by the nervous system.'
No one knows how dowsing works, they only know it does. There are two popular theories to explain dowsing: the first suggests that dowsing works as a result of natural phenomena. Buried metal, minerals and underground water causes either a magnetic field or a disturbance in the earth’s own magnetic field. It is thought that the dowsing rod is a tool for showing the reaction of the magnetic field in the ground to the natural magnetic field of the body. This theory was investigated scientifically in Logan, Utah, USA, around 30 years ago. Intrigued by a dowser pinpointing the bodies of two boys who drowned in a local river, Duane G. Chadwick, professor at the Utah State University Water Research Laboratory undertook several experiments to see if there was some scientific basis for dowsing. Chadwick and his colleague, Larry Jensen started from the known observations of geologists that underground water can cause anomalies in the Earth's magnetic field. They figured that dowsers could show sensitivity to these anomalies by involuntary muscular movement in the wrists, and dowsing rods would certainly amplify any small muscular reaction by up to 300 times.
In the first of a series of experiments, on the Campus, they set about testing the idea that dowsing reactions might coincide with the spots where some changes occurred in the Earth's magnetic field. Chadwick and Jensen laid out a straight track, free of obstructions and, using a caesium vapor magnetometer, checked for variations in the earth’s magnetic field at one-foot intervals. Chadwick then buried a length of wire, in a neutral area, to distort the magnetic field. Twenty-five people were recruited to walk the test course. Few of them were dowsers; most were students or university staff. They were given a pair of L- rods made out of clothes-hanger wire, and told to hold them out roughly horizontal. If they felt any kind of reaction, they were to stop and put down a small block of wood. The results were amazing in that twenty-three of the participants had a dowsing reaction within three feet of the buried wire. Chadwick was convinced the outcome was far greater than chance.
In another experiment in North Logan City Park, Chadwick and Jensen marked out a test course with no obvious or known features. This time, the test was double blind - nothing was deliberately buried and no one knew what was out there. 150 participants with dowsing rods were asked to drop a wooden block whenever they experienced a dowsing reaction and again almost everyone did. They dropped an average of 11.3 blocks each and the location of each block was documented. Then Chadwick and Jensen went over the course with two magnetometers mounted, at different heights, on a wooden sled. The difference between the magnetometer readings showed the variation in the magnetic field along the track walked by the dowsers. The researchers then graphed the magnetometer readings against the positions of the wooden blocks, which showed again that the dowsing reactions occurred unmistakably at peaks in the magnetic field.

The Second theory is that dowsing works through the arts of the paranormal; an explanation used to account for the ability of some dowsers to find objects which are thought not to produce or influence magnetic fields. As far as field dowsing is concerned, the paranormal theory is probably in error since it has been shown that virtually everything, be it animal, vegetable or mineral, reacts to magnetic fields. However, map dowsing is something else. How does a person dowse a map to successfully locate a target hundreds or thousands of miles away? There are many unanswered questions along the same lines, which are commonly put down to psychic ability or intuition. Mankind does not know everything. Much science fact today was the science fiction and mysticism of the past and dowsing has undoubtedly survived from primitive times when the ability to find water, for instance, could have meant the difference between life and death.
To my mind there are actually two types of dowsing. Field dowsing based on magnetic effects and map dowsing or distance dowsing based on intuition or psychic ability. The two types of dowsing are quite different and both types can be learned and improved on with perseverance and practice
.
This is a small spattering of information that I have found while researching ‘consciousness’ and it’s relationship to PSI. The research and laboratory work in this field has been undertaken by colleges, universities, scientific, and government professionals all over the world for over 100 years. In every avenue of this research (of which dowsing is a part), the field work and lab work has shown consistently that PSI phenomena has performed better than random chance. (Some far better)
Some of the above was taken from Electromagnetism and life, Robert O. Becker and Andrew A. Marino, State University of New York Press, 1982

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont have any experience with dowsing so I will not comment there.
I have had experience with a Ouija board and it is not just a game. I believe there is something to it but I am afraid to use it again as my experiences with it were many years ago. It is something to watch that pointer piece fly all around the board spelling out sentences with just my fingertips barely touching it. What makes it work, I do not know.
I dont recommend anyone using it for any reason.
I would imagine y'all have read Marc's story.

What makes it work is really a very simple and very well-known mechanism. It's called the ideomotor effect.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

"The ideomotor effect is a psychological phenomenon wherein a subject makes motions unconsciously (i.e., without conscious awareness).


The whole key to this explanation, that is often overlooked by those wishing for other more esoteric explanations, is the phrase "..a subject makes motions unconsciously (i.e., without conscious awareness).." Of course the Ouija board appears to operate without any conscious intervention from the players; that's because without conscious awareness means exactly that.

This is the best explanation. I have some doubts, however, when using it alone, the pointer moves so fast, from letter to letter, only pausing briefly, that I can barely keep my fingertips touching it, let alone pushing it. In other words, I am not putting enough pressure to push it, as I can barely keep up with it, when it is working good. I will need more experiments. It has been many years ago. I would not even have the guts to mention this had Marc not been brave enough to tell his story. This is the type I remember using.

 

[Miner49er]

So remote viewing never was used?


Remote Viewing
Transcripts
Joseph W. McMoneagle



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The End of the Line / Sightings on the Radio
with Jeff Rense
Sunday, March 2nd, 1997 8:00pm - 11:00pm Pacific Time
Featured Guests
Dr. Edwin C. May and Joseph W. McMoneagle

Transcript File 3 of Total 7


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Transcribed by PJ Gaenir, [email protected]

Transcribed from audio cassette which was courtesy of Jeff Rense.

This is a "general" transcript. It does not include every syllable.

File 3 of 7 in this series.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continued from previous file.
MAY: Amazing answer. So if Joe McMoneagle can hit 80% and have an 80% accuracy rate, I find it hard to believe the government wouldn't extend for that.

RENSE: Me too.

MAY: OK. Good answer. Hour number 1 with Dr. Edwin May is now complete, we'll be back right after news with Joe McMoneagle and Dr. Ed May here at the End of the Line.

[break]

RENSE: Welcome back everybody, hour number two. Joining Dr. Edwin May, a U.S. physicist, for the second hour and the third hour as well, is Joe McMoneagle, one of the six original government top secret military remote viewers. Joe McMoneagle was the only subject who stayed in the program its entire period of existence, from October 1978 right on through November 1995. He was also one of [only] two subjects [who] participated in both the applications side and the R&D side of remote viewing. Joe McMoneagle has now done over 4000 remote viewings, for the record, meaning under strict controls. He has done seven "put to the test" type RV's where he has done remote viewings on camera live while under very strict controls. Those include an ABC news special, Reader's Digest home video, and several other programs including a live remote view for CNN. Generally speaking, Joe McMoneagle's statistics for 19 years are like this: out of any 100 targets, he can be expected to hit the target about 55-60% of the time. Of the targets he hits on, he will get anywhere from 45-85% correct information on the average, on those target. On the targets he hits on, about 15-50% of the drawings of those targets will be near perfect overlays for the photographs of the actual target -- almost as if, as you heard Dr. Ed May say -- they were traced right over the photograph.

 

[ivan salis]

ouiji board -- not around me -- the "spirits" of the dead need be left alone --and not summoned

now how does dowsing work ? let me see --If I understand it correctly -- living humans give off a faint electric feild because of the electrical energy within our bodies -- as does any other "living" object ---many folks call them "auras"--- it is a well known fact* metals react to electrical feilds* -- the basis for metal detectors is this --(*metal detectors make a stong electrical feild and as the coil of the metal detector runs over the metal object in the ground --- the electrical feild reacts with the metal disturbing the "feild" ---this "disturbance" in the feild is reported to the detector --it beeps --- the metals (iron -- copper-- steel-- gold and silver) are all conductive metals thus they "react" to electrical signals pulling some of into them -- the amount of signal absorbed can help the machine figger out possibily what type of metal it is and how deep it may be---

we human beings also make a electrical feild (just like a detector does)-- the copper wires used in dowsing are conductive metals -- it is a known fact that some folks are more sensitive to things than others -- (some folks can pick up faint smells or hear high pitched noises or have a finer sense of taste -- than the bulk "normal" of people) -- so it could be possible that the metals react to their "strong" personal electrical feild via the copper rods much like a very primative form of metal detector

there is within us a "life energy" -- that when we die goes somewhere -- it is often refered to as the soul -- ghost are often thought to be "trapped" life energies of the dead stuck in between here and where they should rightly be-- there are things that we as mere humans are not yet wize enough to fully understand -- a smart man is smart enough to know he doesn't know it all nor will he ever know it all --thats gods job -- Ivan

 

[Miner49er]

The American Institutes for Research Review
of the Department of Defense's
STAR GATE Program:
A Commentary
by
Edwin C. May, Ph.D.
Cognitive Sciences Laboratory
Palo Alto, California
Executive Summary
As part of the fiscal year 1995 defense appropriations bill, responsibility for the government-sponsored investigation and use of ESP* was transferred to the Central Intelligence Agency. In a Congressionally Directed Action, the CIA was instructed to conduct a retrospective review of the 24-year program, now known as STAR GATE, that resided primarily within the Intelligence Community. The analysis was to include the research that was conducted since 1972 at SRI International and later at Science Applications International Corporation. In addition, the CIA was to include an assessment of the intelligence-gathering utility of anomalous cognition (AC), and the program history was to be declassified (CIA Public Affairs Office, 1995). Initiated in June 1995, the evaluation was to be completed by 30 September 1995.
The CIA contracted with the American Institutes for Research (AIR) to manage the review. They, in turn, formed a "blue-ribbon" panel that included psychologist Professor Ray Hyman from the University of Oregon and statistician Professor Jessica Utts from the University of California at Davis. AIR contributed Michael Mumford, Ph.D. and Andrew Rose, Ph.D. to the panel to provide unbiased assessment on methodological issues. The President of AIR, David Goslin, Ph.D., served as coordinator of the evaluation effort.
I was asked by CIA to provide administrative support, technical documents, and briefings on an as-needed basis for the review. This work was supported by a small contract to Science Applications International Corporation.†
The CIA-sponsored AIR investigation concluded that a statistically significant laboratory effect has been demonstrated but more replications were needed. In no case had the anomalous cognition information ever been used to guide intelligence operations (Mumford, Rose, and Goslin, 1995).
I question the validity of their and the CIA's conclusions because they:
· Limited the data sets in the analysis. As a way of officially ignoring anomalous cognition's positive contributions to intelligence, only a small fraction of the operational remote viewing database was examined. That was the final data collected just before the unit closed, a time widely known as problematic. In their laboratory evaluations, they restricted the investigation to only the government-sponsored research and then insisted on the need for more outside replications. In doing so, they ignored the conclusions of one of their own investigators who showed that the government-sponsored research had been already been conceptually replicated.
· Failed to contact significant program participants. Because of the complexity of the 24-year program, it is impossible to conduct an in-depth and accurate evaluation without significant contact with the program's many major participants. The review focused on the project's reports, but they were written to satisfy specific contract requirements and were not designed individually or in total to serve as a program justification; thus, these documents provide a substantially incomplete picture of the program.
In addition to questioning the validity of CIA/AIR's conclusions, I find such serious problems with their evaluation methodology that I have become reluctantly convinced that their conclusions were set before their investigation began. The investigators failed to:
· Apply consistent criteria for acceptance or rejection of anomalous cognition. The investigators were troubled by possible non-AC alternative explanations for the statistically significant laboratory results, yet ignored similar alternatives for the failed operations. For example, well-known psychological effects such as bad morale, failed expectations, and a lack of a supportive environment, were not discussed as potential alternatives for the failed operations. In their positive forms, all of these psychological effects are critical for excellence in any human activity.
· Avail themselves of the previous exhaustive reviews conducted by various organizations within the DOD, all but one of which was positive. Since the CIA was allowed only four months to complete the evaluation, it is surprising that they chose not to use this resource.
· Reject a discredited evaluation of parapsychology conducted by the National Research Council (NRC). They knew that the NRC investigators were not cleared for access to the vast majority of SRI's research, yet the AIR investigation relied heavily on the NRC's review to question the SRI research results prior to 1988.
· Use neutral government scientific evaluation resources such as the Military Services' or the CIA's Scientific Advisory Boards. Instead they commissioned external investigators with previously published conclusions about parapsychology. The CIA could then justify whatever conclusion they wished, because it would be consistent, by definition, with at least one of their external reviewers.
· To recognize a potential significant conflict of interest for Dr. David Goslin, president of AIR and a report co-author. He had administrative responsibility for the discredited NRC investigation of parapsychology.

 

[gollum]

After what appeared to be some successes in a laboratory environment, the study of Remote Viewing did get some funding and some research was devoted to it at Ft. Geo G. Meade, MD.

However, upon closer examination, it was later found to have no detectable significance as a tool for rational intelligence gathering.

In regards to Brig Gen J. L. Dozier, who had been kidnapped by the Red Brigades in Italy in 1981. He was freed by Italian police after 42 days, apparently without help from the psychics.

Here is the conclusion from a report aimed specifically at the value of RV:

Conclusions

The foregoing observations provide a compelling argument against continuation of the
program within the intelligence community. Even though a statistically significant effect has been
observed in the laboratory, it remains unclear whether the existence of a paranormal phenomenon,
remote viewing, has been demonstrated. The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding
the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists, nor do they address an important
methodological issue of inter-judge reliability.

Further, even if it could be demonstrated unequivocally that a paranormal phenomenon
occurs under the conditions present in the laboratory paradigm, these conditions have limited
applicability and utility for intelligence gathering operations. For example, the nature of the
remote viewing targets are vastly dissimilar, as are the specific tasks required of the remote
viewers. Most importantly, the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous,
making it difficult, if not impossible, for the technique to yield information of sufficient quality and
accuracy of information for actionable intelligence. Thus, we conclude that continued use of
remote viewing in intelligence gathering operations is not warranted.

The entire report may be read at: http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/air1995.pdf

Hey Larry,

I guess first thing thing is to explain how the Intelligence Apparatus of our country works. You test something publicly, then say you find no reason to continue funding because the project does not work on a basis consistent enough to be effective. Then, you move the entire operation underground to a more secret facility, with participants who are more trustworthy, and fund the entire thing with money from front companies set up specifically for that purpose.

Next, DID YOU READ THE ENTIRE REPORT YOU QUOTED FROM? I will include here a few excerpts from YOUR OWN REPORT:

According to Webster's Dictionary, in law prima facie evidence is "evidence having such a degree of probability that it must prevail unless the contrary be proved." There are a few examples of applied, non-laboratory remote viewings provided to the review team that would seem to meet that criterion for evidence. These are examples in which the sponsor... or another government client asked for a single remote viewing of a site, known to the requester in real time or in the future, and the viewer provided details far beyond what could be taken as a reasonable guess.Two such examples are given by May (1995) in which it appears that the results were so striking that they far exceed the phenomenon as observed in the laboratory.

HMMMMM.....Lets read on:

Dr. May
concluded that in one of the cases the remote viewer was able to describe a microwave generator with 80 percent accuracy, and that of what he said almost 70 percent of it was reliable. Laboratory remote viewings rarely show that level of correspondence. That would seem to constitute prima facie evidence unless an alternative explanation could be found. Similarly, the viewer who described the microwave generator allegedly knew only that the target was a technical site in the United States. Yet, he drew and described the microwave generator, including its function, its approximate size, how it was housed and that it had "a beam divergence angle of 30 degrees" (May, 1995, p. 15).

Striking! But let's go on.........

One of the apparent successes concerned the "West Virginia Site" in which two remote viewers purportedly identified an underground secret facility. One of them apparently named codewords and personnel in this facility accurately enough that it set off a security investigation to determine how that information could have been leaked. Based only on the coordinates of the site, the viewer first described the above ground terrain, then proceeded to describe details of the hidden underground site.

The same viewer then claimed that he could describe a similar Communist Bloc site and
proceeded to do so for a site in the Urals. According to Puthoff and Targ "the two reports for the West Virginia Site, and the report for the Urals Site were verified by personnel in the sponsor organization as being substantially correct (p. 8)."

SPELLBINDING! But we're not done yet!

The third reported operational success concerned an accurate description of a large crane and other information at a site in Semipalatinsk, USSR. Again the viewer was provided with only the geographic coordinates of the site and was asked to describe what was there.

For example, a government official who reviewed the Semipalatinsk work concluded that there was no way the remote viewer could have drawn the large gantry crane unless "he actually saw it through remote viewing, or he was informed of what to draw by someone knowledgeable of [the site]." Yet that same analyst concluded that "the remote viewing
of [the site] by subject S1 proved to be unsuccessful" because "the only positive evidence of the rail-mounted gantry crane was far outweighed by the large amount of negative evidence noted in the body of this analysis." In other words, the analyst had the expectation that in order to be "successful" a remote viewing should contain accurate information only.

NOT QUITE DONE YET!

6. IS REMOTE VIEWING USEFUL?​

Even if we were all to agree that anomalous cognition is possible, there remains the question of whether or not it would have any practical use for government purposes. The answer to that question is beyond the scope of this report, but some speculations can be made about how to increase the usefulness.

First, it appears that anomalous cognition is to some extent possible in the general
population. None of the ganzfeld experiments used exclusively selected subjects. However, it also appears that certain individuals possess more talent than others, and that it is easier to find those individuals than to train people. It also appears to be the case that certain individuals are better at some tasks than others. For instance, Viewer 372 at SAIC appears to have a facility with describing technical sites.

I have to thank you Larry for quoting that report! It greatly helps to prove my point. I must admit I am getting a little tired and haven't read the entire thing, but I guess you get the point.

Lastly, I will quote from an article in the Vancouver Courier in 1996 Info important to my point is in bold face, and RV Success stories are both bold and in RED:

Spy versus psi: The Cold War induced powers to explore information gathering through psychic phenomena​

by Geoff Olson
Contributing writer

Do spies use psi?​

One of the more persistent stories about the dark world of U.S. intelligence is that they have used psi--the umbrella term commonly used for psychic phenomena--to gather information.

So it was no surprise to observers when newspapers recounted the 20-year tango between spooks and psychics. The surprise was the source of this information--the CIA itself. "CIA confirms U.S. used 'psychic' spies," announced an Associated Press wire story Nov. 28 last year. According to it, Project Stargate employed psychics "to hunt down Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, find plutonium in North Korea and help drug enforcement agencies."

Former Central Intelligence Agency director Robert Gates, appearing on Nightline that day, gave the official position on Project Stargate. Along with Gates was a former technical advisor to the agency, as well as a physicist involved in psi research.

The physicist spoke of "dramatic (ESP) cases in the laboratory, both statistically important as well as visually compelling." The advisor, allowing himself to be identified only as "Norm," said that little of the psi work produced "any significant intelligence product," but then spoke of results with psychics that made for "eight-martini nights" -- apparent intelligence parlance for information so accurate it cracks the sense of reality of everyone involved, requiring a few drinks to recover. Gates downplayed the effectiveness of the Stargate program, saying ESP had a low priority for the agency.

To understand this weird chapter in the history of espionage, you have to go back to the dark days of the Cold War, when any sort of perceived gap--missile, bomber, or otherwise--was a source of apocalyptic anxiety. The Russians have had a long fascination with otherworldly topics. Even under communism, paranormal claims had comparatively greater official regard there than they have had in the West. So when Soviet leaders saw possible military applications of psi, they were first out of the gate.

According to Maj.-Gen. Ed Thompson, former chief of staff of U.S. Army Intelligence, American spies were monitoring Soviet psychic programs. They discovered an unnerving discontinuity in the period between 1969 and 71. "There was a watershed in Soviet research," said Thompson in a recent British television interview. "Prior contact between unofficial Soviet citizens and the West dried up, and the whole program appeared to go classified, hidden from view, and was presumed to be funded by the KGB... It was evident that they were particularly active in long-distance telepathic communication, also in PK, which they called telekinesis, and also telepathic hypnosis, possibly to disrupt individuals in key positions..."

While mainstream American academia has always been highly dubious of paranormal claims, the concern of the intelligence community was never whether psi was comprehensible within a materialist paradigm, but whether or not it worked. U.S. intelligence turned to the Stanford Research Institute, the country's second-largest think tank. It was already involved in classified high-tech defense work, and had an annual budget of $70 million.

Hal Puthoff was a young physicist working at the institute on physics projects with lasers. He had done a few experiments testing ESP--"sort of a lark," he says now--when he was approached by representatives of the intelligence community. Thus began his involvement in "remote viewing," both classified and unclassified work on psi that would take up the next 20 years of his life.

According to the physicist, some of the best results were with New York artist Ingo Swann. Puthoff and his colleague Russell Targ began testing Swann with objects hidden in boxes, and pictures in envelopes--experiments he regarded as a trivialization of his skills. Swann told Puthoff he could close his eyes and see anywhere on the planet. Give him any co-ordinates for latitude and longitude, the artist said, and he would describe what was there.

Swann apparently had some success with this, and the researchers thought they had a case of eidetic imagery--perfect visual recall from memory, from material presumably culled from maps. They chose more refined co-ordinates, down to buildings, and Swann still kept getting "hits" far beyond chance. This was the first indication of the military possibilities of so-called "remote viewing."

Soon intelligence representatives of the CIA, the army, the navy and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) came calling.

"It was a very business-like atmosphere," Maj.-Gen. Thompson said about a visit to the research institute. "It was not a seance, just a very hard-headed practice of remote viewing." After hearing Swann claim he could turn anyone, military or not, into a remote viewer, Thompson had a go himself. After coming away with what he interpreted as positive results, he started his own remote viewing operation in Fort Meade, Md.

Fort Meade drew its remote viewers from the ranks of the military. Artistic and extroverted types were said to be the best candidates, as were "dreamers" who were easily hypnotized. (Not your average military profile, surely.) Several viewers were formerly imagery interpreters, experts at evaluating overhead reconnaissance shots.

So, what exactly is remote viewing?

According to the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research laboratory, which has purportedly replicated the Stanford findings, the phenomenon is the "ability of human participants to acquire information about spatially and temporally remote geographical targets, otherwise inaccessible by any known sensory means."

The institute set the standard for remote viewing research to follow. Under protocols developed mostly by Ingo Swann, the remote viewer attempted to get sensory impressions of a distant target, after entering a state of high relaxation. Sometimes the remote viewer's tester supplied co-ordinates for a given target, but it was later discovered these weren't always necessary.

Many of the first impressions of targets were whole-body sensations, or vague feelings--hot or cold, dark or light--and details were progressively more refined with imagery. Targets were those intelligence problems not accessible by satellites and spies, such as stockpiles of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, and the whereabouts of intelligence "assets."

The official position is that remote viewing alone never guided operational decisions. However, many sessions were believed by high-ranking individuals to be important supplements to other data. Officially, remote viewing produced useful results only 15 percent of the time, but some officials say the numbers--particularly the sessions guided by Swann--were actually higher, up around the 85 percent mark.

One remote viewer, Joe McMoneagle, was said to be particularly skilled. His job was remote viewing a large, mysterious building in the northern Soviet Union. "Most analysts though the Soviets were trying to build a miniature aircraft carrier," says McMoneagle. "We remote viewed the building, and determined that in fact they were building the largest submarine in the world. We were able to describe in detail the tubes and how they were mounted on the sides of the sub. It turned out to be the new Typhoon class submarine, the largest submarine in the world. It had exactly the number of tubes we said, and everything was essentially correct."

According to McMoneagle, with remote viewing, "It's actually possible to gain access to the insides of file cabinets, desk drawer, rooms, buildings in restricted areas of other countries for espionage purposes." (McMoneagle, a winner of the Legion of Merit award, retired in 1984 and continues remote viewing as a consultant.)

According to the accounts, the remote viewing program, both at the Stanford Research Institute and other locales, began to disintegrate in the final years. Eventually the program came under the aegis of the Defense Intelligence Agency, which introduced less structured techniques. The program lost focus with the introduction of civilian "channelers," tarot card readers and the like.

Under the DIA's wing, however, several successes were cited, including the finding of Brig.-Gen. James Dozier, kidnapped by the Italian Red Brigade. According to the physicist in charge of the DIA Stargate project, one remote viewer gave the name of the town where Dozier was being hid--Padua--and another gave the name of the building. Details down to the bed where Dozier was chained were apparently accurate.

Remote viewer wanderings weren't limited in space, apparently. And they weren't limited in time. Next month we look at some of the stranger claims made for remote viewing, and the decline of the Stargate program.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Hey Larry,

I guess first thing thing is to explain how the Intelligence Apparatus of our country works. You test something publicly, then say you find no reason to continue funding because the project does not work on a basis consistent enough to be effective. Then, you move the entire operation underground to a more secret facility, with participants who are more trustworthy, and fund the entire thing with money from front companies set up specifically for that purpose.

----snip snip----

Best-Mike

You address me as Larry. I guess that was a mistake; Yes?

If you personally find Remote Viewing to be something that is beneficial to your pursuit of gaining information; by all means utilize it to the fullest.

I, for one, am glad my tax dollars are no longer being channeled to support such a practice, as it was concluded by those who did a complete investigation, to be of no value since "...the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous, making it difficult, if not impossible, for the technique to yield information of sufficient quality and accuracy of information for actionable intelligence...".

Sorry Jerry,

Just a little late night mistake.


First, don't believe for a second that your tax dollars aren't still being spent on Remote viewing. Do you REALLY think that we had RV Units for 26 years, and then considered them to be of no value? Get real.

to be of no value since "...the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous

Maybe you missed the part of my previous post taken directly from your report:

the viewer who described the microwave generator allegedly knew only that the target was a technical site in the United States. Yet, he drew and described the microwave generator, including its function, its approximate size, how it was housed and that it had "a beam divergence angle of 30 degrees"

two remote viewers purportedly identified an underground secret facility. One of them apparently named codewords and personnel in this facility accurately enough that it set off a security investigation to determine how that information could have been leaked.

"the two reports for the West Virginia Site, and the report for the Urals Site were verified by personnel in the sponsor organization as being substantially correct

a government official who reviewed the Semipalatinsk work concluded that there was no way the remote viewer could have drawn the large gantry crane unless "he actually saw it through remote viewing, or he was informed of what to draw by someone knowledgeable of [the site].

Maybe I missed something, but please explain how any of those are either "TOO VAGUE" or "AMBIGUOUS"?

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Well, you believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. I can tell you for sure, there is nothing going on at Ft. Meade, MD, to do with RV.

As I can be fairly certain that you don't have full access to every building at Ft. Meade (especially ones occupied by NSA, DIA, and some other sets of initials. I worked in a Comsec Vault for a short time in the 1980s there), I would say that your statement regarding the subject is "most likely" (since I don't actually know you) above whatever paygrade you may possess.

...and besides, who said the it was still being run out of Ft. Meade? Since the CIA handed it over to the military in the mid 1990s, who's to say it is not being run out of Langley, Va, or some other secure location?

You are correct though. You will believe whatever you want, and I will go with what I know about how the Intelligence Services of this country work (from many years of close association via various units in which I was stationed over 14 years in both the Navy and the Army).

Best-Mike

 

[ivan salis]

sadly over many years I came to know much more than I really wish to about how the govt intel services really work-- because of opsec type reasoning the best way to "protect" a "known" program is to "offically" publicly declare it worthless and then "offically" kill it --then blackbag fund it quietly to avoid "oversight" and thus leaks (simply put -- senators and congressmen can't talk about what they aren't privy to --- and the few ultra high level ones of the black bag funding group are the type that don't "talk") --- the NSA (no such agency) got by for years (by not "offically existing" at all )--- just that way --- what talking about? --- folks that asked about who and what the NSA was and what they were doing were "checked" out* very ,very well to find the leaks where they heard of it from and then the govt "plugged" those leaks very,very well. Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

when did the info you hav on the NSA "go public" ? not in 1952 when the NSA was formed but much much later ( and once "reveled" they open up )-- then "spin off" quietly forming a new "hidden" black bag group to take over the tasks they used to do -- itel services by the very nature of the type of work that they do work best when very few people know what their doing -- since it cuts down on possible leaks --- that is plain common sense 101.

the general public at large would barf if they really know all the dirty low down things the us govt intel services did from 50's to now -- the phinox project (in nam)-- operation mongoose (cuba) --the hiring of mob hitmen by the cia to kill a south american leader (trillo--in south america)-- the siu union - cia* (edwin p wilson connection)---- later on wilson helped libya get a huge amount of C4 explosive ---some of which was later used over scotland to blow up the pan am flight-- the "tags" put into it proved it was from the same batch of explosives -- thats how the us "knew" libya was behind the bombings*

yep its all just "guess work" on my part --look these up for yourself-- these a lot stuff going on that most american folks are totally unaware of (just the the way the US govt wants them to be for the most part)

 

[ivan salis]

sorry -- I was just "attempting" to state that in the document used as evidence-- in which the govt tries to dispprove / prove the validity of remote veiwing and other "abilitys" like dowsing-- that things may not be as clear cut as they seem to be--- mainly for security purposes.

 

[gollum]

Jerry,

I keep a sense of humor about most everything in my life. Nothing here to get PO'd about.

And I agree that this thread has started wandering off the reservation. Sorry folks.

Never even knew about the Project when I was there in the early 1980s, so, no, I was never in buildings 2560 or 2561. I went from sleep to work and back to sleep for the six months I was TAD there. Not much time for sightseeing.

Actually, I understand that the project didn't get moved to Meade until the mid 1990s. Before that, it was at SRI in Menlo Park, California.

I'm not completely objective about the project because I have met both Ingo Swann and Joe McMoneagle. I found no reason to doubt anything they said.

...........and no, I don't make it more clandestine than necessary. I just have a lot of experience with how our government can keep things under wraps, that it wants to keep secret. Just threw Langley out there as a possibility. If the CIA wanted to keep an operation under wraps, they could have moved it anywhere in the world.

My guess for you would be either GSA or DARPA, since you seem to have some knowledge about funding for projects. Maybe wrong, maybe not.

and it would not necessarily be clandestine for reasons of National Security. It might be something as simple as not wanting to be embarrassed by a report getting out about funding psychic research. As I understand it, that was why all the research was conducted at SRI for all those years. NO serious Commanding Officer wants to be known for being in charge of a psychic spy unit. Doesn't look good to promotion boards. They might catch a lot of s**t at the 0 Club.

HAHAHAHAHA. The NSA "USED" to hold the title of most secret of all agencies until that article came out in Penthouse in the late 1970s (I may be wrong on the date, but I remember the article).

Ivan,

Yes. The Intelligence Services of this country have done some rather nasty things. You just need to keep in mind that if it weren't for the nasty things our people have done over the years, this country wouldn't be where it is right now. Protecting our national interests is a lot like the old analogy about making sausage; NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY likes to watch it being made, but we all like to eat it. We have had to partner with many not so wholesome people. Do a lot of things that the general public would have a fit about, should much of it ever become public knowledge. I give you two names to look up: David Morales and Frank Sturgis. Two very unconventional characters, who did things highly unpalatable to most Americans ways of thinking, but some of their actions which will NEVER become public knowledge kept the Soviet Union from getting a foothold in the Western Hemisphere. We have them and many more whose names will never be known to thank, who have put their lives on the line in the s**ttiest places on Earth (and gave their lives in many instances).

I've rambled enough.

Best-Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Wow, I tried to read all the comments on this thread, but eventually ran out of time, and skipped to the bottom :P I started a thread on the "why I don't believe in dowsing" forum, titled "How do you discount the testimonials?" So that is my opinion of why you sometimes hear of successes. But chiming in on this thread, as per the spiritual implications, I want to add this: Yes, it does have to have some sort of spiritual implications, because there is not scientific explanation.

Some persons have said, in reply to that, that "maybe it's undiscovered science?" Ie.: because history (some well meaning Christians in more ignorant times, or whatever), used to differ with something in their ignorance, MUST mean that therefore also dowsing must be scientific, yet "we haven't discovered it yet." That is illogical, and no amount of historical accounts of mis-led people from history prop that up. Here's an example: If I tell you that I have a peanut butter sandwich, that, when held at arm's length, will find gold and silver, would you believe me? If you questioned my reasoning, I could merely tell you it's "undiscovered science", and you would have no way to disprove that. It's the same for the circular logic of dowsing. You can believe equally in the peanut butter sandwich treasure finder as you can for the dowser.

But beyond all that, let's assume that there has been success with water dowsing, or even treasure dowsing! Sure, I'll admit to that. So too has their been "success" with all sorts of forms of paranormal! (remote viewing, spells, seances, etc...) does that make those things right? Is there anything we should stear clear of "even though it works"?

If anyone would like the blueprint plans to build my peanut butter sandwich treasure finder, I sell the plans for $100 each

 

[ivan salis]

agree with the sausage law thought--- just saying --- don't be so naive as to think that there are not things that are "kept a lid on" -- we weren't there --it never happened --and if you have photos or proof that we were otherwize give it to me (officer x) and I'll see that it gets "checked up on" -- then poof both officer x and "evidence" is gone without a trace. ha ha ha -- while it is sometimes for security reasons its nessicary for things to be like that -- some folks do exploit it for there private reasons and benefit