FIND THE STARTER DRILL HOLE ON THE STONE MAPS?

[Furness]

Wayne, The flecks in the sandstone are probably natural, as sandstone has quite a lot of quartz or feldspar in it,

BB, the idea that steel is not as good these days as it was years ago is an urban myth, if you went to a forge master in a steel works and said that to him he would laugh at you,
there's no comparison between the best steels made today and those of a few hundred years ago, unless your using the cheap Chinese margarine metal tools that are sold at the large supermarkets and DIY places,

and drilling holes even in the softest sandstone until they invented electric drills they had to use a star drill and turn it by hand after each blow, and they were still part of a normal joiner and carpenters tool kit when i served my apprenticeship for plugging walls to put a door casing in or window frame skirting board etc, exactly the same way hard rock mining was done years ago, the only difference is the size of the drill used,

even the small holes rely on shock to break the grains apart, that's why an hammer drill is far better than a drill that goes round with no hammer action, and that's why if you've ever drilled holes in brick stone etc they now use tungsten/carbide, and even they wear quickly unless you use a green stone wheel to sharpen them,
the smaller the hole the more difficult to drill, and the less likely it will be round, because it needs tapping with a hammer and turning after each tap,
smoothing the grooves by rubbing yes, but even then they use a sharp edge or squared off end on whatever they rub it with,
even the best tool steel wears away very quickly if you try drilling stone with it, the speed also needs to be correct otherwise your not going to get anywhere fast,

a few months ago i saw a program where a stone mason in France turned a 2ft cube of sandstone into a full lions head complete with mane and muscle figuring an open mouth with teeth done as part of the renovation on Ruon Cathedral, open nostrils everything life like, and he carved it in two days all by hand,
a good stone masons apprentice with a few chisels and a carvers mallet could probably do the carving on the stones in his lunch hours over a couple of week, there is simply not enough work on them its first year apprentice stuff,

John

 

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[Blindbowman]

"its first year apprentice stuff,"

your saying everyone here has been out wited by a green horn ...lol

how easy are all of you ...?

if its so easy why havent you found it yet ...

and if i dont know what i am talking about then why do i know where it is and all of you dont ...lol

 

[Springfield]

All the stone's in these pictures that you posted are all fake, Copies of the real one with alot of differs.

Babymick1

OK. Then what do the real ones look like?

And why all the copies, some of which have probably been assumed by many to be the real deal?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'afternoon BB, you posted -->and if i dont know what i am talking about then why do i know where it is and all of you dont ...lol
************

DO you?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

yes ,,,.....

 

[somehiker]

Drilling a hole in stone,the old fashioned way.

 

[Blindbowman]

joe you also bring up a nother good point ,, the lighting on the stones as the pictures were taken can change what is seen and how much is seen .... details can be light reflective ..angle of the cuts angle of the stone to the light sorce . angle of the light and intenisity of the light and range and bearing from the light sorce ..

you also mis one other interesting peice of data .. if the stones have this much detail on them they had to be made in the mts on location .. pictures would not cut it .. these were made by someone out there that took years to make them ..that subports my theories...look at the detail and tell me tumlinson went back to his shop and made these ,, thats out right foolish ...

bb,

I have said all along that whoever made the maps did not create them in a short period of time. That being said, I don't believe that Travis made them at all........at least not by himself. He may have carved them, but someone else was guiding his hand. Either someone who was living in the mountains, or someone who had spent years exploring them.

In other words, you're not saying anything I haven't been saying......for years.

Joe Ribaudo

then why do you keep repeating your self ..?

did you figer out where tumlinson found the stones yet ...? i did ...

 

[wrmickel]

All the stone's in these pictures that you posted are all fake, Copies of the real one with alot of differs.

Babymick1

OK. Then what do the real ones look like?

Well for starters, the start line with a arrow there was a 2, not a arrow and where it has blank = blank = 18 the mine sign should only be there

Babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

Ah, is this kind of a one-off of "spot Elmo"? <kidding>

Somehiker posted this photo, and no one seems to have picked up on a key point:

See the thing being held close to the eye? It is called a Jewelers' loupe; it is a magnifier. These start dimples would very probably be very small, less than a quarter inch certainly, unless the drill were held in place for a long time. I doubt you are going to see diddly-squat from any kind of photographs unless they are done at something like 10X and very close, as in inches away.
Oroblanco

 

[wrmickel]

Lets say you bought something and someone say,s you must give it up would ya, I don't think so
but you might give them a slighty change copy to stay out of jail

Babymick1

 

[somehiker]

Ah, is this kind of a one-off of "spot Elmo"? <kidding>

Somehiker posted this photo, and no one seems to have picked up on a key point:

See the thing being held close to the eye? It is called a Jewelers' loupe; it is a magnifier. These start dimples would very probably be very small, less than a quarter inch certainly, unless the drill were held in place for a long time. I doubt you are going to see diddly-squat from any kind of photographs unless they are done at something like 10X and very close, as in inches away.
Oroblanco

Actually Roy,I thought that some would notice the significant difference in colour between the two Trail Stones in the photo.This colour difference does not show up in any other photo where the stones have been paired in a single shot,regardless of lighting.A red flag,in my opinion,the two trail stones in the photo are copies,possibly taken from moulds and cleaned up with a rotary tool of some type.Mike,for one,has examined the stones at the SSM with a high powered magnifier without being able to see the drill marks.His photos,at the top of the page are magnified enough to see the grains of the "sandstone" as well.Any drill or machine sanding marks would be visible....if they were there.
If the claimed drill marks were there we all would be able to see them.If the folks from DAI saw drill and mechanical sanding marks when they examined the stones supplied by the mineral museum,they were,IMO,looking at a different set of stones.

Regards:SH.

 

[Blindbowman]

well if we are going to define the true stones from fakes or copies .. we can look at the first stone mike shows ,, is the horse stone .. but is it .. the two lines are not seeable on the left side that run from the uper left to lower center of the stone at about 4:00 angle . they are not on that stone or not seeable ..but the stone dose look at first to be the true horse stone . has the two lines be washed off in cleaning , and was the cleaning of the stones a distruction of evidence ...

i just inspected the picture of horse stone mike shows

this is the true horse .. so i can not tell you why the two lines are not see able on it . but this is the same stone jim hatt posted on his site in thaat photo the stone was standing up right . and these to picture are of the same stone . on has been cleaned and one was not ...
the picture mike has posted has been cleaned or the lighting is difrent and makes the lines un see able . but they are IMHO the same horse stone ...
there are micro difrences in the face of the stone that could not be copied in the finer details .. these two picture are of the same horse stone and tells me the picture mike has posted first of the horse stone is not a copy or a fake ...clean poorly yes or mis leeding light angles to the surface of the stone .

inspection of the stones is a fine art and many fakes have been made for a number of reasons ..

you can find the picture i compaired to mikes first horse picture at jim's web site ..

the photo at jim's web site is the best picture i have seen to date .. of the horse stone ..just to make sure we dont make things more confuseing to others here is a picture of the horse stone i saw at jim's web site and yes i do beleive this is the true horse stone ..

 

[Blindbowman]

IMHO the two pictures are of the same stone , jim hatt showed had not been cleaned yet .. and the one mike shows has been cleaned ..the reason i pointed this out is because i beleive the cleaning of the stones destored a very valueable peice of evidence ,

read this from answers.com

pencil, pointed implement used in writing or drawing to apply graphite or a similar colored solid to any surface, especially paper. From prehistoric times lumps of colored earth or chalk were used as markers. The Egyptians ruled lines with metallic lead, as did medieval monks. The so-called lead pencil-a rod of graphite encased in wood-came into use in the 16th cent. From the late 18th cent. pulverized graphite was mixed with clay to bind it and to provide different degrees of hardness-the more clay, the harder the pencil. Today the mixture is forced through dies, cut to the required length, and kiln-fired. The rods are laid in grooves of a thin board, a similar board is placed over them, and the wood is shaped into pencils, usually of round or hexagonal cross section. Pencils are also manufactured with cores of colored pigments mixed with clay and wax and of other materials. Mechanical pencils are commonly made of metal or plastic, the cores (or leads) being advanced by operating a screw mechanism or a propel-repel ejector mechanism.


secound clip from answers.com

History





Old Soviet coloured pencils with box (circa 1959)
The archetypal pencil may have been the stylus, which was a thin metal stick, often made from lead[citation needed] and used for scratching in papyrus, a form of early paper. They were used extensively by the ancient Egyptians and Romans. The word pencil comes from the Latin word pencillus which means "little tail".

Discovery of graphite deposit

Some time before 1565 (some sources say as early as 1500), an enormous deposit of graphite was discovered on the approach to Grey Knotts from the hamlet of Seathwaite in Borrowdale parish, Cumbria, England.[1][2][3] The locals found that it was very useful for marking sheep. This particular deposit of graphite was extremely pure and solid, and it could easily be sawn into sticks. This remains the only large scale deposit of graphite ever found in this solid form.[4] Chemistry was in its infancy and the substance was thought to be a form of lead. Consequently, it was called plumbago (Latin for "lead ore").[5][6] The black core of pencils is still referred to as lead, even though it never contained the element lead. The words for pencil in German (Bleistift) and in Irish (Peann Luaidhe) both literally mean lead pen.

i beleive the cleaning destore a very rare exsample of the first graphite type pencil

if the person that created the stone did in fact create them as i have stated in my time line .. the stones were changed in 1643-1645 and the pencil would have been made in or just before those years
and if the navigator that helped created the stone had one of these pencils he would have been from a wealthy family and a man of standing in the new spain area .. most likely a captain of many years to have know about the values of the pencil ..

i am correct , these stones were cretaed and changed in the years between 1643-1645 ..



i beleive the reason DAi clean the stones was to get a better look at them . in doing so they may have destored value evidence as i stated before .. and yes i beleive i can still prove it . with DNA ... see graphite is much like lead base . but it would have shown up and a posable contack sorce ..

these lines are some of the oldest unknown navigation of their kind ..i know what they mean and why they were on the stones

so you can see whats right in front of your eyes or you can let some people destore evidence with out even knowing they did it .. DAI IMHO was not only wrong about the stones they in fac destoryed valueable evidence by poor cleaning skills .. if we had that DNA now .. this would be over in days .

your lucky i think out side the box . way out side the box ......

the fact is i told you when the stones were made when they were changed who made the changes and when and why . and now i can tell you even more about them then i could yesterday ...and if there is any way to recover a sample of the graphite pencil DAI will learn something i hope before they make other misteaks ....of this type ...

the priest at Tayopa and the vicroy of new spain would have been the few that would have had those early graphite pencils ... in the same years i stated the stones were created in ...

so no i am not wrong . i have found the missing Peralta mines or renamed Tayopa mines

can i prove it .. lets find out .. the tayopa letters did not state what the letters were made with
i will go on record to state i beleive they were written in early graphite pencil ..

so no it may never be proven but very very compling evidence never the less ....

 

[Blindbowman]

PS just in case you think i could be wrong .. take a look at the two pencil lines the go threw the word cobollo and the word santafe , the lines were on the stone before the word was added to the stones .. the wording covers up what the pencil lines showed .. these tells me the pencil lines were on the stones when the words were added and most likely in those years of 1643-1645 ....

and yes i know what they mean and how to use them ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning BB, What is DNA? Why put delicate, temp markings, on a stone map which was apparently designed to resist weathering, time, and be useable for centuries?

Incidentally lead marks on a stone, or similar piece of materiel do not wash off easily. Minute pieces of sheared lead remain in the cavities or pores and can easily be brought out by various means. So it would take either chemical or deep physical abrasion to remove 'most' of the marks.

Questions, questions, with no logical answers sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

Morning BB, What is DNA? Why put delicate, temp markings, on a stone map which was apparently designed to resist weathering, time, and be useable for centuries?

Incidentally lead marks on a stone, or similar piece of materiel do not wash off easily. Minute pieces of sheared lead remain in the cavities or pores and can easily be brought out by various means. So it would take either chemical or deep physical abrasion to remove 'most' of the marks.

Questions, questions, with no logical answers sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

RT can you still hike ..?

 

[Blindbowman]

you ever make switch RT the two out side peice of bread dry out and the inside stays the same color ...

 

[BILL96]

Mike,
You ask a very simple question and so far it has not been answered. If an organazition like DAI is going to take the time snd energy to make an official examination of the stones then the followup report should at least be complete.
The fact that it appears to so incomplete seems to make the whole examination rather pointless, they simply failed to answer the most basic of questions.
I wonder if they took a look at the glue holding the heart together?, I wish someone had an answer to that mystery.
Bill

 

[Blindbowman]

Mike,
You ask a very simple question and so far it has not been answered. If an organazition like DAI is going to take the time snd energy to make an official examination of the stones then the followup report should at least be complete.
The fact that it appears to so incomplete seems to make the whole examination rather pointless, they simply failed to answer the most basic of questions.
I wonder if they took a look at the glue holding the heart together?, I wish someone had an answer to that mystery.
Bill

only one of two people could have put the glue on the stones . tumlinson or waltz ....age the glue thats a easy one ..and if you tell me waltz had glue carring it around , i will lol in your face ... had to be tumlinson or after he found them ...IMHO

 

[BILL96]

It certainly seems like it would be an easy mystery to solve but unless I have missed something the glue has never been analyzed and made public and from what I understand it won't be. It's such a very basic question and really could give some idea of the age of the repair and yet......no information. While the age of the groves may never be known, the glue should be a piece of cake.
You would think we are trying to prove the Mona Lisa is a fake painted in 1887.

Bill