It was a Coyote Type Morning

[Coinucopia]

I live way out of town in a rural farming area and raise chickens as sort of a hobby for free eggs. Chickens are like coyote magnets. They are a real nuisance and many of them seem to succumb to lead poisoning.

 

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[Megalodon]

Most Coyotes were reintroduced into their former environments by State Wildlife Agencies (i.e. Department of Natural Resources, Wildlife Resources Agencies and others with similar names) and have pretty much been left to flourish unchecked. These agencies all deny that they had anything to do with the Coyotes coming back into a State. Until the Public makes these agencies accountable for the problem that they created, then Coyotes populations will continue to grow and the problems concerning them grow. The West Virginia Sheep Farmers and Cattlemen did so back in the early to mid 1990's by recruiting an individual who was graduating from High School and paying for this individual to go to College where they obtained Degrees in Biology and Wildlife Management. After this individual graduated from College, he got a job with the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources in Charleston, WV where he eventually found the smoking gun, an email sent out to others in the agency back in the 1970's (I believe) detailing their plan to reintroduce Coyotes back into West Virginia. The Sheep Farmers and Cattlemen had sued the West Virginia Department of Resources numerous times over loss of livestock, seeking restitution for their losses and to have the Coyote population brought under control but they lost every time until they got the smoking gun. With it, they sued and got restitution for their' losses, got money for their pain and suffering and got the WVDNR to place poison bait stations all over West Virginia and to service those bait stations on a regular basis.

While some may disagree but whenever I see one while I am hunting, I dispatch them to the afterlife. I have lost too many cats to them, too many neighborhood pets have been lost to them, too much wildlife have been lost to them and too many family members and neighborhood kids have had too many close calls.

It is a persistent myth that state agencies like DNR Wildlife departments introduced coyotes. I heard many such stories over my 32 year career working as a biologist at a state DNR and the decade before working for a non-governmental scientific organization. The story usually involves black helicopters flying at night who drop coyotes and venomous snakes with little parachutes - because....well, who knows.

Coyotes flourish where we have wiped out the predators that were native. In many eastern states, the earliest laws in the 1600's were predator eradication laws that specified bounties for mountain lions and wolves. These large predators had large ranges and it was easy to eradicate them in a few decades with the incentive of bounties. With no real predators, we have overpopulation of deer (athough the habitat is also more favorable for deer today too).

I was always impressed that every person who somehow managed to catch a fish was smarter than every fisheries biologist and every person who saw a wild animal knew more about wildlife than every wildlife biologist.

 

[Megalodon]

A few years ago I was in the barn feeding chickens when I heard a squawk behind me. I turned around just in time to see a coyote run out the door and around the corner with a chicken in it's mouth. It stopped about 50 yards out and started pulling feathers from the chicken with its mouth while holding the bird down with its feet. I ran at it waving my arms and hollering and it let the bird go and ran off a hundred yards or so and then sat on its haunches and just looked at me. I ran to the house and grabbed the shotgun. I got back just in time to stop it from going back into the barn/chicken pen. This boy was just too brave or hungry for his own good.

Coyotes find chickens irresistable. Its possible to keep them away from chickens, but the cost is not cheap and you wind up with a place that looks like a max security penitentiary yard.

 

[tinpan]

I think you are talking about N$%@& Pel&%$. Yep, I hate nosy so-called do-gooders and would pour Elk and Moose urine along the streets in front of their' properties at night but in the utility right-of-ways and set off stink bombs every chance I got. I would also catch some fish, let it rot and throw them and rotting cabbage in the same locations. Technically, you would not be breaking any laws but the Police might find something to charge you with. Since you are only creating a nuisance, I would imagine you would only get a slap on the wrist. Maybe the nosy do-gooders will get the message and leave well enough alone.

Hi , You have more than 65,000 years of hunters ? If not your not even considered TP

 

[OreCart]

I was always impressed that every person who somehow managed to catch a fish was smarter than every fisheries biologist and every person who saw a wild animal knew more about wildlife than every wildlife biologist.

I have a real hard time with this because the system is absolutely insane.

To set fishing quotas, they send ONE boat out on the water, using data from LAST year, with the boat laden with COLLEGE INTERNS who are NOT fishermen, all to determine that there are no fish in the Gulf of Maine and that the quotas need to be dropped.

Then the next year they do the same thing, and it starts this stupid cycle where the following year, the same thing happens; only this time the quote was down, so there is less fishermen chasing the fish, and there is less data, so the inexperienced crew of new college interns sets an even lower quota.

It would be the same thing as sending a laborer with no training to weld a bridge together, and then when the welds fail, conclude that welding is a flawed method of building bridges. That would be absolutely insane, and yet for some reason we expect it to work for the fishing industry.

Here is a news flash; there is fish in the Gulf of Maine, just because inexperienced people on a boat, with limited data, and limited budgets cannot find it, does not mean they are not there.

 

[sandchip]

Coyotes are just another good reason for the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Megalodon]

I have a real hard time with this because the system is absolutely insane.

To set fishing quotas, they send ONE boat out on the water, using data from LAST year, with the boat laden with COLLEGE INTERNS who are NOT fishermen, all to determine that there are no fish in the Gulf of Maine and that the quotas need to be dropped.

Then the next year they do the same thing, and it starts this stupid cycle where the following year, the same thing happens; only this time the quote was down, so there is less fishermen chasing the fish, and there is less data, so the inexperienced crew of new college interns sets an even lower quota.

It would be the same thing as sending a laborer with no training to weld a bridge together, and then when the welds fail, conclude that welding is a flawed method of building bridges. That would be absolutely insane, and yet for some reason we expect it to work for the fishing industry.

Here is a news flash; there is fish in the Gulf of Maine, just because inexperienced people on a boat, with limited data, and limited budgets cannot find it, does not mean they are not there.

You are probably talking about the national marine observer program. That program does use college students and those recently graduated as well as the occasional retired professional who doesn't want to get off the water. Their job is to collect data - that's it. The data are then used by fishery managers in peer-reviewed population models and used to estimate populations. They are estimates only - with variances. Input from the public is part of any process that involves determining size and bag limits or changing those limits. For federally managed species, this is done through the ASMFC - Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission. Money is always tight and it is possible that sampling at times is not sufficiently robust to come up with better estimates. There are other times when the data are ok, but the model is flawed with untested or flawed assumptions. Usually the state is given several options that in theory, all achieve the same calculated fishing mortality. Those options are then presented to the fishermen for their input at public meetings, and based upon public input, one management approach is chosen. This is done every year for some species (summer flounder, striped bass etc) along the coast - from FL to ME. Every state has these meetings. I go to them and present my opinions. Anyone else can do the same. I have been to these meetings before and after retirement and nobody else from the public has showed up. Its a pity that many have sacrificed for this democracy, yet so few choose to participate in it. At these public meetings, factual comments are always appreciated more than uninformed or dishonest conspiracy theories.

 

[huntsman53]

It is a persistent myth that state agencies like DNR Wildlife departments introduced coyotes. I heard many such stories over my 32 year career working as a biologist at a state DNR and the decade before working for a non-governmental scientific organization. The story usually involves black helicopters flying at night who drop coyotes and venomous snakes with little parachutes - because....well, who knows.

Coyotes flourish where we have wiped out the predators that were native. In many eastern states, the earliest laws in the 1600's were predator eradication laws that specified bounties for mountain lions and wolves. These large predators had large ranges and it was easy to eradicate them in a few decades with the incentive of bounties. With no real predators, we have overpopulation of deer (athough the habitat is also more favorable for deer today too).

I was always impressed that every person who somehow managed to catch a fish was smarter than every fisheries biologist and every person who saw a wild animal knew more about wildlife than every wildlife biologist.

A lot of what you stated is likely correct. However, in the case of the WVDNR, the evidence (the smoking gun) was found and the case brought back to Court where the Sheep Farmers and Cattlemen had their day in Court and won.

Concerning the last paragraph (sentence), I have met many hunters and fisherman over the years that I believe are or were smarter than some wildlife and fisheries biologists. Some things you just can't teach in a classroom!

 

[huntsman53]

Hi , You have more than 65,000 years of hunters ? If not your not even considered TP

 

[Megalodon]

A lot of what you stated is likely correct. However, in the case of the WVDNR, the evidence (the smoking gun) was found and the case brought back to Court where the Sheep Farmers and Cattlemen had their day in Court and won.

Concerning the last paragraph (sentence), I have met many hunters and fisherman over the years that I believe are or were smarter than some wildlife and fisheries biologists. Some things you just can't teach in a classroom!

They began to be reimbursed for their losses but it had nothing to do with any state stocking of coyotes - that is the stuff of conspiracy theorists.

Every fisheries biologist and wildlife biologist I knew over the past 40+ years was a serious outdoorsman before choosing to pursue science as a career. The field draws from the population of fishermen and hunters. It is a huge advantage "in the classroom".

 

[creskol]

Here was my final moments with mine of 13 years just before I had to have him euthanized.

 

[RustyRelics]

I have lost two very good cats, one right after the other due to coyotes. I just heard some last evening.

 

[Megalodon]

http://www.wvdnr.gov/wildlife/magazine/Archive/05Winter/coyotes.pdf

An old article in a WV wildlife publication about coyotes. The life history info is still current, but the hunting regs are probably out-of-date.

The most interesting recent developments - to me at least, will be the use of modern DNA analyses to examine some of these species, especially those that hybridize freely. I was told by a wildlife biologist that the presence of a dew claw indicated a coyote-dog hybrid, but its an area that should be getting further research now that we have such good DNA technology. I have wondered if the coyotes that are not as shy around people might have as much dog genetic material in them as coyote. If there are any students reading this, perhaps consider this to be a possible research possibility in grad school. For others interested in Biology generally but not natural resources or genetics, I recommend microbiology specialties - especially Mycology.

 

[Tahts-a-dats-ago]

It is a persistent myth that state agencies like DNR Wildlife departments introduced coyotes. I heard many such stories over my 32 year career working as a biologist at a state DNR and the decade before working for a non-governmental scientific organization. The story usually involves black helicopters flying at night who drop coyotes and venomous snakes with little parachutes - because....well, who knows.

Coyotes flourish where we have wiped out the predators that were native. In many eastern states, the earliest laws in the 1600's were predator eradication laws that specified bounties for mountain lions and wolves. These large predators had large ranges and it was easy to eradicate them in a few decades with the incentive of bounties. With no real predators, we have overpopulation of deer (athough the habitat is also more favorable for deer today too).

I was always impressed that every person who somehow managed to catch a fish was smarter than every fisheries biologist and every person who saw a wild animal knew more about wildlife than every wildlife biologist.

I'm inclined to agree with you regarding coyotes; they're found in most major cities now and that's not because they were introduced by state/federal agencies. Lots of food opportunities and no real natural threats to keep them in check.

I know for a fact that large predators have been reintroduced into areas though; in this case I'm talking about Mountain Lions and the state of NE. I was born and raised in NE. I spent a good deal of time hunting/trapping/fishing (did quite a lot of coyote hunting too). Despite the official state word otherwise, we knew there were a few Mountain Lions in the area. I never saw one live, but it wasn't uncommon to see tracks near water sources. Those tracks were too large for a bobcat. Twice I've seen what remains of a calf carcass up in a tree.

There were a lot of coyotes in the area, and I've seen a good number of coyote kills, but never one where the carcass had been dragged 12 feet up a tree.

Sometime after I had moved to NJ the state's story blew up (I think it was in the mid 1990's).

One wintery day a homeowner (in the small town - directly across the street from the elementary school) opened his garage door to get his snow blower out. Inside the garage was a grown Mountain Lion. Long story shortened - the local cops ended up shooting/killing the Lion. Being a very small town in a state without Mountain Lions, this made the news and it wasn't long before the state officials were asked how a state that hadn't had Mountain Lions in nearly 100 years could have a Mountain Lion in some guy's garage in a small town in the center of a large state.

The state was forced to admit that it had been slowly reintroducing Mountain Lions for quite a number of years - and hadn't told the public about the effort.

It wasn't just a matter of not telling people though; the state routinely (and falsely, it turned out) denied the possibility of there being Mountain Lions in NE. Those who hunted frequently knew better though. Farmers and Ranchers knew better too.

To be fair I had not assumed that the state reintroduced Mountain Lions. I figured a few Lions hadn't looked at a map and/or didn't know they weren't supposed to move into the state of NE - or they hadn't bothered to notify the state that they had taken up residence in NE. As it turned out, I was wrong: the state did reintroduce Lions and was aware of the fact that there were Mountain Lions in the state of NE. I don't know if the Lions ever bothered reading a map though.

The scuttlebutt in NJ is that the state reintroduced coyotes that are a mix between eastern coyotes and some Canadian Wolf. There seems to be a bit of support for the coyote/wolf theory, but I'm not completely sold on that one. The coyotes (in NJ) do seem to be a bit larger than the coyotes I recall in NE - but I haven't seen many NJ coyotes so the jury is still out.

 

[Tpmetal]

It is a persistent myth that state agencies like DNR Wildlife departments introduced coyotes. I heard many such stories over my 32 year career working as a biologist at a state DNR and the decade before working for a non-governmental scientific organization. The story usually involves black helicopters flying at night who drop coyotes and venomous snakes with little parachutes - because....well, who knows.

So actually where that "myth" originates in my mind was not about coyotes, but rather an attempt to try and reintroduce a wolf into south eastern canada and north eastern usa. The reintroduced a wolf into the areas to try and start a population. Turns out they couldn't compete with the coyotes, and just ended up interbreeding with them. This created What has since then been coined "Coywolf" and has been heavily documented and even nat geo had a great article about it. As a result up here in the north east we have these huge coyotes(big males have been recorded over 70lbs) with very orange colored fur(a trait from the wolf) they even have slightly different shaped heads. not only that, their mannerisms and behaviors are also more wolf like. Packing up more readily like wolves, and hunting in similar styles, and all around more agressive. I think they consider it a new subspecies or something like that.

 

[DizzyDigger]

Orecart, that Bobcat is no threat to you unless you corner it, then,
like any animal, it will fight. If you see it and are worried about it,
just chase it off like you would a stray dog..it's looking for food, not
trouble.

As for the coyotes, they have gradually been moving more eastward for the
past century. And yes, the Eastern coyotes are a larger breed, and have a
more squared off jaw. To my knowledge, coyotes have never been transplanted
anywhere.

If you see a coyote out in a field, it's there hunting up a meal..most
likely it will be a mouse or rodent, maybe even a rabbit. Leave it be,
as it's causing no harm, and the odds are high that it's got puppies to
feed back in a den. You kill mom, and those puppies die slowly from
hunger and dehydration. Want that on your conscience?

Like Jim in Idaho, I've called many, many coyotes in, and have had
them in my lap (literally) more than once. I've had bobcats suddenly
pop out of a bush 5 ft. from where I was sitting..same reaction in both
cases...they got the hell out of there in a hurry.

Taking the life of an animal just because you can is not right, and yes,
I've learned this by experience. If you or your pet is in danger, that's different,
but if that coyote isn't doing anything wrong just leave it be...just like any
creature it has the right to eat and exist.

JMHO, of course.

 

[Megalodon]

So actually where that "myth" originates in my mind was not about coyotes, but rather an attempt to try and reintroduce a wolf into south eastern canada and north eastern usa. The reintroduced a wolf into the areas to try and start a population. Turns out they couldn't compete with the coyotes, and just ended up interbreeding with them. This created What has since then been coined "Coywolf" and has been heavily documented and even nat geo had a great article about it. As a result up here in the north east we have these huge coyotes(big males have been recorded over 70lbs) with very orange colored fur(a trait from the wolf) they even have slightly different shaped heads. not only that, their mannerisms and behaviors are also more wolf like. Packing up more readily like wolves, and hunting in similar styles, and all around more agressive. I think they consider it a new subspecies or something like that.

Yes, they are much larger, but I don't believe they have been submitted nor approved as sub-species (yet). Such a designation might require approval by the international committee of scientific nomenclature (it certainly does for species designation proposals). As far as I know, the coy-wolf and coy-dog are still considered hybrids between two species. Conventional wisdom used to be that hybrids were all sterile (chromosome reasons) but there are always exceptions, especially for very closely related species that hybridize.

 

[dirtlooter]

years ago, when I was but a little guy, we had coyotes around but according to my grandfather at the time, they had been slowly becoming more and more common. Then the commercial type chicken houses really picked up. The common practice at the time was to simply throw the dead ones out on the ground and let the "critters" eat them. The critters included fox, coyotes, bobcats, dogs, coons, various birds such as buzzards etc. The constant influx of so much food promoted an explosion in several "critters" including the coyote and they thrived. Locals formed what they called "wolf hunting clubs" to run with their running dogs and that was about all the control in effect. Now, we have laws in place in disposal of the dead chickens so that is not so much a factor anymore. However, our deer populations have increased a lot as well as our pet numbers. As for the mountain lions, for years our Game and Fish denied that we had any, finally in the 80s, I confronted a game warden as to how they could do this. He told me then that according to the state, there might be 4 of them in the state. I told him that I had already seen their 4 lions about 3 times while bowhunting. He claimed that the state had hired some expert from Arizona that "drove" around looking for tracks like he did back there. Now, with game cameras, not only are they seen on a regular basis but also with game taken such as a deer. The game warden said that the state denied the existence of the big cats to avoid responsibility for them. He also agreed that there were quite of few of the cats, at least in the Ouachita Mountain area where I lived. Nature by design, had checks and balances in place to keep most of the animals in check, "Modern man" messed all of that up.

 

[Megalodon]

Good post. Most people ignore the role of the scavenger and these animals find scavenging easier than predation. One of the flaws of diet studies in animals is the inability to determine if the stomach contents were alive or dead when consumed. If there is a carcass left behind, then the presence or absence of hemorraging can show if the animal, such as a lamb, etc. was alive or dead when bitten. Scavengers serve a useful purpose. I found a short obscure mention in a book written in the 1940's of the usefulness of snapping turtles in fish hatchery ponds. So i looked into our hatchery production and sure enough, the ponds with snapping turtles in them had better fish production. I attributed this to the scavenging of dead and dying fish by the turtles. Ponds without turtles had lower dissolved oxygen due to the decomposition of the dead fish and more common low D.O. pond crashes that killed off the entire pond. I did some casual experiments with snapping turtles and live fish in large tanks where they could be observed and they were remarkably, almost comically inept as predators. Healthy fish could coexist with snapping turtles almost indefinitely. Before I retired, I received many phone calls from people who wanted someone to come out and trap out the turtles in their ponds. I advised them that turtles in ponds were beneficial in most instances (not duck farms...) and they should appreciate seeing these living dinosaurs.

 

[huntsman53]

They began to be reimbursed for their losses but it had nothing to do with any state stocking of coyotes - that is the stuff of conspiracy theorists.

Every fisheries biologist and wildlife biologist I knew over the past 40+ years was a serious outdoorsman before choosing to pursue science as a career. The field draws from the population of fishermen and hunters. It is a huge advantage "in the classroom".

All I will say in reply is that I lived in West Virginia for 10 years (1984 through 1994) and know what the Sheep Farmers and Cattlemen went through with the Coyotes and the WVDNR. Many of these folks were or still are my friends and some have passed. The whole time I lived in West Virginia, the Sheep Farmers and Cattlemen paid a bounty for every Coyote killed and brought to a store (if I remember correctly, it was in Northern Pocahontas County) where you could bring the Coyote and get paid. Again, the smoking gun was the email that proved that the WVDNR had a hand in reintroducing Coyotes back into West Virginia. TWRA here (formerly TWA - not the Airline Company) along with the Department of Interior deny that they had a hand in stocking Black Panthers into the Great Smoky Mountains National Park to help reduce/control the Wild Boar population which had exploded unchecked and threatened the tourist that visited the Park. Deny all they want but the article detailing their involvement was in the Knoxville News Sentinel in 1964.

I agree that animals, birds, aquatic life and even insects are only trying to survive and propagate their kind but never should be left to do so unchecked because there are dire consequences! God granted dominion over all of these to man when he created them and man and no species should be left unchecked or virtually unchecked to the detriment of other species. To ignore or violate that dominion is virtually signing the death warrant and in some cases, the extinction of entire species either due to predation, disease or starvation.