Odyssey Marine Article...

[jeff k]

From what I hear, James Goold was behind the DOJ Amicus brief. It's not clear who the DOJ is representing, but it could be the Navy. As you know, Goold is representing Spain. I don't think it will have a bearing on the outcome. Judge Merryday will go by law, not politics.

 

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[mad4wrecks]

Judge Merryday will go by law, not politics

One would hope so...but sadly we know that isn't always (usually?) the case.

 

[jeff k]

Odyssey Motion to File Declaration...

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/248/0.pdf

 

[jeff k]

"Warships, naval auxiliaries, and other vessels owned or operated by a State and used at the time they sank only on government non-commercial service, are State vessels."

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7j.htm

 

[jeff k]

Wall Street Journal Article...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125503519791274253.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_world

 

[Vox veritas]

"Warships, naval auxiliaries, and other vessels owned or operated by a State and used at the time they sank only on government non-commercial service, are State vessels."

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7j.htm

Dear friends,
from 1981 I have investigated the lost of the Mercedes thoroughly. Until where I know and I have been able to verify, the flotilla of 1804 with this frigate had the official mission to transport money of the royal treasure to subsidize Bonaparte privately. She came this way in official mission of State and only in second instance in commercial mission.
Cheers

 

[Panfilo]

The "litmus test" that will be decided in this legal case, very probably in the US Supreme Court Claudio, is whether the function of the Mercedes during its last voyage was a military one or a commercial one. As you have indeed researched this case in great detail you know perfectly well she was carrying "cascarilla" wood, seal oil, copper and tin ingots, unserviceable cannons, private passengers including women and children not to mention over 700,000 pesos (coins) belonging to private merchants. The King was transporting 200,000 pesos. The departure of these ships as a commercial ship was advertised in the Lima paper "for the merchants to be informed". Now what puzzles me Claudio is if the Spanish lawyers believe that just a few months later after the sinking of the Mercedes, when the Santisima Trinidad, the Spanish flag ship was leaving port on its way to Trafalgar, if she was carrying similar cargo or if the captain much preferred to load powder and munition instead of copper and tin bars and soldiers instead of children and women? The legal standard for this case is the Law of the Sea Convention, UNCLOS, that very clearly in states:
Article 96. Immunity of ships used only on government noncommercial service

Ships owned or operated by a State and used only on government non-commercial service shall, on the high seas, have complete immunity from the jurisdiction of any State other than the flag State.

The key words here are " non-commercial service" Claudio and this is exactly what this case is about.

 

[Vox veritas]

The "litmus test" that will be decided in this legal case, very probably in the US Supreme Court Claudio, is whether the function of the Mercedes during its last voyage was a military one or a commercial one. As you have indeed researched this case in great detail you know perfectly well she was carrying "cascarilla" wood, seal oil, copper and tin ingots, unserviceable cannons, private passengers including women and children not to mention over 700,000 pesos (coins) belonging to private merchants. The King was transporting 200,000 pesos. The departure of these ships as a commercial ship was advertised in the Lima paper "for the merchants to be informed". Now what puzzles me Claudio is if the Spanish lawyers believe that just a few months later after the sinking of the Mercedes, when the Santisima Trinidad, the Spanish flag ship was leaving port on its way to Trafalgar, if she was carrying similar cargo or if the captain much preferred to load powder and munition instead of copper and tin bars and soldiers instead of children and women? The legal standard for this case is the Law of the Sea Convention, UNCLOS, that very clearly in states:
Article 96. Immunity of ships used only on government noncommercial service

Ships owned or operated by a State and used only on government non-commercial service shall, on the high seas, have complete immunity from the jurisdiction of any State other than the flag State.

The key words here are " non-commercial service" Claudio and this is exactly what this case is about.

Yes, but the main reason of the trip was a mission of State. But certainly, it will be a judicial decision to determine who is right.

 

[jeff k]

German Press...

http://tinyurl.com/ylm5fmq

 

[Philvis]

While I do not feel Spain should get the spoils, to make things easier, Odyssey should give 200,000 pesos to Spain, minus a generous finders fee of course. If the rest was commercial purposes, Spain shouldn't see a dime. If Spain is going to get a cut, if not all, I think Peru has just as much right to the claim. The coins were minted in Lima from Peruvian gold.

 

[mad4wrecks]

But Peru was under Spanish control, was territory of Spain, at the time the silver & gold was mined, and the coins minted.

 

[Panfilo]

A woman is either pregnant or not, she can not be a little pregnant or partly pregnant Claudio. In a similar way a state ship in order to receive the special immunity and protection awarded to Sovereign ships, she has to be in an exclusively military non commercial mission. That is the law, the Law of the Sea. If she was in a joint military/commercial mission, there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s very probable and in many similar cases was well documented, the flag state cannot claim sovereign immunity. It’s that simple if you take away the politics and leave only the law to decide. In this particular case, I suspect the politics, at this point in time, have overshadowed the legal essence of the debate. The higher courts one would assume will set things straight.

Regarding the incidental fact that the coins were minted in Potosi, Lima and in Popayan, or perhaps China, I don’t see that this is a significant detail that determines who owns the coins. I have a one hundred dollar bill looking at me in my desk that I won in Las Vegas many years ago. Does that bill somehow belong to the US Treasury or to my descendants when I leave to search for the lost galleons in the other world? I don’t think so.

 

[Saturna]

In this particular case, I suspect the politics, at this point in time, have overshadowed the legal essence of the debate.

The US may not want to alienate a European ally and would sacrifice Odyssey to keep it on their side. These decisions would never be known to the public though.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1863264,00.html

 

[trinidad]

More homework to Jeff K. It has been published today on the spanish press. Basically, an speaker from the Ministry of Culture denies that there were previous contacts beetween Odyssey and the Ministry before the Black Swan recovery. Here is the text:

"La subsecretaria del Ministerio de Cultura, Mercedes del Palacio, aseguró hoy en la Comisión de Cultura del Congreso que no existieron contactos previos al expolio del pecio Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes con la empresa cazatesoros Odyssey.
De este modo respondió a una pregunta del diputado del PP por Cádiz José Ignacio Landaluce, que pedía opinión al Gobierno sobre la actuación de Gibraltar al dejar pasar por su Aduana las 17 toneladas de oro y plata valoradas en 500 millones de dólares que en mayo de 2007 viajaron desde allí a Estados Unidos.
"Sólo cuando las piezas del buque recalaron en Gibraltar fue cuando el Estado español hizo un tibio intento por esclarecer quien era el propietario del tesoro. Pero la actuación de Gibraltar no fue la correcta. Ante nuestras narices el tesoro salió hacia Estados Unidos a través de Gibraltar", recriminó Landaluce, quien responsabilizó, entre otros departamentos ministeriales, al de Cultura y aludió a la "imagen de fragilidad", "sentido del ridículo" y "hazmerreír" que ha hecho España en este asunto.
Mercedes del Palacio contestó al diputado 'popular' que es al Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores a quien corresponde "valorar la política exterior de España" y que esto "excede las competencias de Cultura".

Intereses defendidos
Asimismo, la subsecretaria del Ministerio de Cultura aseguró que "los intereses de España se han defendido, se están defendiendo y se defenderán en el futuro con absoluto rigor". También recordó a este respecto que existen dos recursos, en La Línea y en el juzgado de Tampa (Estados Unidos) y que por lo que se refiere a este último ha habido un "pronunciamiento favorable a los intereses de España".
"Esperamos que en un futuro no muy lejano éste sea ratificado por el Tribunal de Segunda Instancia. Además hemos obtenido el apoyo judicial expreso de Estados Unidos a las justas pretensiones de España en este tema", insistió recordando que no es la primera vez que se verifica un juicio de esta naturaleza. "Los pecios Juno y La Galga se defendieron con éxito y ahora también con éxito se defienden nuestros intereses en EEUU", afirmó respecto al caso Odyssey.
"Confiamos en que haya un pronunciamiento definitivo de los tribunales americanos favorables a nuestras pretensiones que consideramos justas respecto a los objetos hallados en el pecio", manifestó.
Respecto a la pregunta del diputado popular de si el Ministerio de Cultura tenía conocimiento de que se expoliaba patrimonio español, Del Palacio repitió que según los datos que tiene Cultura "no consta que hubiera conocimiento previo de esta circunstancia".

 

[jeff k]

Trinidad... That's true. When Odyssey met with Culture in 2006, there was no mention of the Mercedes. Odyssey was looking for several ships in the area, and invited Culture to participate in the search. I don't believe they mentioned any ship by name. Culture declined to participate.

Translation:

"The Under-Secretary of the Ministry of culture, Mercedes del Palacio said today in the Commission of culture of Congress that no existed prior to the spoliation of wrecks Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes with the cazatesoros company contacts Odyssey."

Thus replied to a question from the Member of the PP for Cadiz José Ignacio Landaluce, requested opinion to the Government on the performance of Gibraltar to let pass the 17 tons of gold and silver says that in May 2007 traveled from there to us $ 500 million by their customs.

"Only when parts of the vessel recalaron in Gibraltar was when Spain made a warm attempt to clarify who was the owner of the treasure." But the performance of Gibraltar was not correct. "Before our noses treasure came to America from Gibraltar", recriminó Landaluce, who blamed, among other ministerial departments to the culture and referred to the "fragility image", "sense of the absurd" and "hazmerreír" made by Spain on this issue.

Mercedes del Palacio replied to the 'popular' Member that is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to who corresponds to "assess Spain's foreign policy" and that this "exceeds the powers of culture".

Defended interests
The Under-Secretary of the Ministry of culture also assured that "the interests of Spain have defended, are defending and shall uphold the future absolute rigorously". He also reminded here that there are two resources in the timeline and in the Court of Tampa (United States) and with regard to this last there was a "favourable to the interests of Spain statement".

"We hope that in the not too distant future it is ratified by the Court of second instance". "We have also obtained express judicial United States support for the just claims of Spain in this topic," insisted Recalling that it is not the first time that verifies a trial of this nature. "The wrecks Juno and the gauge defended with success and now also successfully defend our interests in the United States," said regarding the Odyssey case.

"We hope that there is a final decision of the American courts favour our claims that we consider to be fair to the objects found in the wrecks," he said.

As regards the question of the popular member if the Ministry of culture had knowledge that expoliaba Spanish heritage, Mercedes del Palacio repeated that according to the data that has culture "not aware that prior knowledge of this circumstance had".

 

[jeff k]

Odyssey's Responses To DOJ & Spain Filed...

I suggest reading doc 259 first.

http://www.shipwreck.net/blackswanlegal.php

Here's another motion filed by Guy Burnette on behalf of the claimants.

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/261/0.pdf

 

[Tom_Restorer]

I think spain has had the chance to search for there lost treasures! If they don´t do it... they have to shut up when others find it!
They are not interested untill someone else make the find...

Finder is keeper... my simple opinion.

Tom

 

[jeff k]

Who's next?

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=345949&CategoryId=14919

 

[Vox veritas]

Who's next?

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=345949&CategoryId=14919

Very well. Did my maternal grandmother have the last name Romano (will something have to see Rome?) and as Italian I am thinking, seriously, to prepare a platform to claim the aqueduct of Segovia, the Roman theater of Merida, etc.etc. Clearly, on behalf of the ministry of culture of Italy.
P.S. anything better than beginning the day with humor.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Who's next?

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=345949&CategoryId=14919

Very well. Did my maternal grandmother have the last name Romano (will something have to see Rome?) and as Italian I am thinking, seriously, to prepare a platform to claim the aqueduct of Segovia, the Roman theater of Merida, etc.etc. Clearly, on behalf of the ministry of culture of Italy.
P.S. anything better than beginning the day with humor.

Has anyone got Indian blood lines? You may be able to claim all the gold at fort Knox !
It came off your land !!!
Ossy