Portugal and Spain are cooperating on this. As a matter of fact, I participated, together with Spanish and Portuguese officials (both civilian and naval officers) on a bilateral meeting last November and, although I am afraid I cannot disclose too much information, I can safely say that Portugal feels that the Spanish are doing a superb job in defending their nautical heritage.
Odyssey Marine Article...
- Thread starter jeff k
- Start date
Saturna
Bronze Member
Alexandre said:
Except that the nautical heritage is not the coins themselves, but the information they hold. Namely their dates, quantity, and location found.
Put some of the best examples in Spanish museums and nautical heritage is maintained.
- Thread starter
- #943
Alexandre said:
Paulo... You originally said it was 40nm from the coast, but now it's only 23nm.
The following is your quote from HHI.
"Hi all, long time no see... I have been secluded away for the past week together with Portuguese and Spanish authorities brainstorming on our commom heritage.... I got one piece of information to share: this Black Swan site is 40 NM south of Cape Santa Maria, at c. 1320 meters deep.
Also, I would like to know any names and places of registration of ships engaged in deep water treasure hunting so that we can blacklist them in our national waters or, to say the very least, to keep a very wary eye on them on our surroundings."
The following is from the Admiralty arrest.
"The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar"
I find it very hard to believe that the arrest site is inside Portugal’s Contiguous Zone and they have done nothing about it, have not become a part of the legal process in Tampa. Improbable and unlikely at best. Alexandre, when you state: “I can safely say that Portugal feels that the Spanish are doing a superb job in defending their nautical heritage” whose heritage are you referring to, Spain’s or Portugal’s? The difference being substantial.
Vox, if Portugal is waiting for the right moment to join the legal battle, they lost their opportunity, the time for filing has passed. Bolivia recently manifested its interest to claim the coins minted in Potosi, according to the press, but it appears they are too late. No, if Portugal did not claim the coins it is most likely because they are outside its jurisdictional waters, no reasonable country would purposely miss out on such a bonanza, “spend no money and claim 500 million dollars that somebody else found for free” is too tempting. It would take a bit more to convince me that the coins were found inside Portuguese waters and they did nothing about it, knowing full well as did the Spanish government about this case. Let’s see some hard evidence and not speculate without any substance. Had Odyssey recovered those coins inside Portugal’s waters don’t you think the Spanish lawyers would have had a field day in court? Let’s be reasonable here.
Vox, if Portugal is waiting for the right moment to join the legal battle, they lost their opportunity, the time for filing has passed. Bolivia recently manifested its interest to claim the coins minted in Potosi, according to the press, but it appears they are too late. No, if Portugal did not claim the coins it is most likely because they are outside its jurisdictional waters, no reasonable country would purposely miss out on such a bonanza, “spend no money and claim 500 million dollars that somebody else found for free” is too tempting. It would take a bit more to convince me that the coins were found inside Portuguese waters and they did nothing about it, knowing full well as did the Spanish government about this case. Let’s see some hard evidence and not speculate without any substance. Had Odyssey recovered those coins inside Portugal’s waters don’t you think the Spanish lawyers would have had a field day in court? Let’s be reasonable here.
Panfilo, for all effects, UCPUH or not, we can only claim what's inside our territorial waters, that is, inside the 12 nm.
That said, look at the Namibian case. Although they have a Portuguese ship there, with Portuguese cargo inside (16 millions euros just for the Portuguese 10 cruzados coins lot), Portugal's official position is: as long as there is no treasure hunting or auctions involved and as long as the wreck site and the artifacts are scientifically researched, Portugal won't be claiming anything of it (or, maybe, only the human remains).
As our Minister of Culture stated to a newspaper guy: "It's our heritage, but it's their wreck".
That said, look at the Namibian case. Although they have a Portuguese ship there, with Portuguese cargo inside (16 millions euros just for the Portuguese 10 cruzados coins lot), Portugal's official position is: as long as there is no treasure hunting or auctions involved and as long as the wreck site and the artifacts are scientifically researched, Portugal won't be claiming anything of it (or, maybe, only the human remains).
As our Minister of Culture stated to a newspaper guy: "It's our heritage, but it's their wreck".
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
I agree with Panfilo, has anyone apart from Odyssey gone to the site ? and confirmed the location !Panfilo said:
Alexandre what would Portugal do if a Spanish ship wreck where in there waters, would they claim it or let Spain claim it ?
Cheers
I am going to open a project for such ship, a Spanish, privately owned vessel, still with 22 tons of bullion (the official tally, at least) inside, wrecked ashore, on a stretch of the Portuguese coast.
I will invite Spanish archaeologists and their remote sensing experts to have a go at the project - the word here is "cooperation". As for the artifacts, if we find them, I am guessing they will be incorporated into a musem (anyhow, who cares about who owns them? What's really important is who is paying for their conservation and study..
)
I will invite Spanish archaeologists and their remote sensing experts to have a go at the project - the word here is "cooperation". As for the artifacts, if we find them, I am guessing they will be incorporated into a musem (anyhow, who cares about who owns them? What's really important is who is paying for their conservation and study..
)
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Thanks Alexandre, you answered part of my question, how old is this shipwreck you are looking for.
Cheers
Cheers
architecad
Hero Member
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Gday architecad 
Have a look at Archaeological institute of America August publication, their is a good report on the Spanish in north Carolina in 1560 long
before Raleigh attempted to settled Roanoke in 1587. The Spanish were wiped out by the Indians.
"Though the Spanish failed, their presence may have contributed to the disintegration of Native American towns that allowed other Europeans to colonize more successfully a century later " Marion P. Blackburn
Ossy
Have a look at Archaeological institute of America August publication, their is a good report on the Spanish in north Carolina in 1560 longbefore Raleigh attempted to settled Roanoke in 1587. The Spanish were wiped out by the Indians.
"Though the Spanish failed, their presence may have contributed to the disintegration of Native American towns that allowed other Europeans to colonize more successfully a century later " Marion P. Blackburn
Ossy
- Thread starter
- #953
Odyssey PR...
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Odyssey-Marine-Exploration-bw-1994568524.html?x=0&.v=1
Black Smokers...
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/issues/2007/january/treasuresdeep.asp
http://discovermagazine.com/2009/ma...-deep-seafloor/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=
http://shipwreck.net/SMSDeposits.php
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Odyssey-Marine-Exploration-bw-1994568524.html?x=0&.v=1
Black Smokers...
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/issues/2007/january/treasuresdeep.asp
http://discovermagazine.com/2009/ma...-deep-seafloor/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=
http://shipwreck.net/SMSDeposits.php
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Very Interesting Jeff, A bit left field for Odyssey ? So are they giving up Treasure hunting ?
Ossy
Ossy
Salvor6
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Ossy, read the article. "We are planning a full schedule of shipwreck exploration for 2010." Greg Stemm.
Andalucía apoya la intervención de la Armada en defensa del Patrimonio
El lunes se reunirá la Conferencia Sectorial de Cultura con el Plan Nacional de Arqueología subacuática como asunto pendiente
El próximo miércoles, el Congreso de los Diputados debatirá una proposición no de ley del PP en la que se «insta al Gobierno a desarrollar y culminar, con carácter urgente, los acuerdos y convenios del Ministerio de Cultura con la Armada y las diferentes Comunidades Autónomas costeras, relativos al cumplimiento de los objetivos del Plan Nacional de Protección del Patrimonio Subacuático, así como proceder a la aprobación de los recursos necesarios»
ABC, 22/11/2009, por JESÚS GARCÍA CALERO | MADRID
Han bastado 48 horas. Ya nada impide que el convenio de los Ministerios de Cultura y Defensa se ponga en marcha y se permita a los buques cazaminas de la Armada colaborar con los arqueólogos para que no se vuelva a repetir un expolio como el que Odyssey pudo cometer en aguas del Estrecho de Gibraltar.
Como ya publicó ABC, Defensa y Cultura acordaron en julio realizar intervenciones arqueológicas en colaboración con las Comunidades Autónomas. Su voluntad era comenzar por Andalucía antes de acabar el verano, pero la Junta, tal vez mal asesorada, impugnó el acuerdo y amenazó con un conflicto de competencias, mientras catalogaba pecios que no podría proteger en solitario.
Ayer, en una rápida reacción, la Junta de Andalucía, por decisión de su presidente, José Antonio Griñán, ha enterrado esta beligerancia y ya ha comunicado que se muestra de acuerdo en la colaboración de la Armada en la defensa del patrimonio sumergido, con el simple añadido de una adenda al convenio interministerial que reconozca su papel en el proyecto.
La pelota está ahora totalmente en el tejado del Ministerio de Cultura, obligado a dar una respuesta a la altura del problema. Primero porque Ángeles González-Sinde firmó el convenio con Carme Chacón. Segundo, porque en los presupuestos de 2009 ya estaba prevista una partida por parte de su antecesor, César Antonio Molina, para el arranque del convenio, partida que Sinde aún no ha ejecutado a un mes del cierre de ejercicio, mientras que los buques cazaminas y de buceo destinados a esta colaboración ya han pasado por una puesta a punto para esta misión. Y tercero porque es responsabilidad de cualquier político cumplir sus compromisos, máxime cuando involucran a otros ministerios e instituciones.
Una semana crítica
Pero es que además el Ministerio de Cultura está emplazado a actuar con rapidez, porque la última semana de noviembre trae citas en las que estará presente el fantasma de la desidia del Gobierno ante el caso Odyssey.
El mismo lunes, la ministra González-Sinde presidirá -en Sevilla, precisamente- la Conferencia Sectorial de Cultura, que reúne a los responsables autonómicos del ramo. Es de esperar que, tras los últimos acontecimientos, allí se hable del Plan Nacional de Arqueología Subacuática, al menos en el capítulo de ruegos y preguntas.
Pero en caso de que la titular de Cultura decida mantenerse pasiva, sólo tendrá que esperar hasta el miércoles para recibir otro aviso, porque el Congreso de los Diputados debatirá ese día la Proposición no de ley del diputado popular José Ignacio Landaluce, que dice así:
«El Congreso de los Diputados insta al Gobierno a desarrollar y culminar, con carácter urgente, los acuerdos y convenios del Ministerio de Cultura con la Armada y las diferentes Comunidades Autónomas costeras, relativos al cumplimiento de los objetivos del Plan Nacional de Protección del Patrimonio Subacuático, así como proceder a la aprobación de los recursos necesarios que permitan la protección, conservación y difusión de nuestro patrimonio arqueológico subacuático.» En resumen, fuerte marejada en el Ministerio. Mejora el estado del mar en Andalucía...
http://www.abc.es/20091121/cultura-cultura/caso-odyssey-pelota-esta-20091121.html
El lunes se reunirá la Conferencia Sectorial de Cultura con el Plan Nacional de Arqueología subacuática como asunto pendiente
El próximo miércoles, el Congreso de los Diputados debatirá una proposición no de ley del PP en la que se «insta al Gobierno a desarrollar y culminar, con carácter urgente, los acuerdos y convenios del Ministerio de Cultura con la Armada y las diferentes Comunidades Autónomas costeras, relativos al cumplimiento de los objetivos del Plan Nacional de Protección del Patrimonio Subacuático, así como proceder a la aprobación de los recursos necesarios»
ABC, 22/11/2009, por JESÚS GARCÍA CALERO | MADRID
Han bastado 48 horas. Ya nada impide que el convenio de los Ministerios de Cultura y Defensa se ponga en marcha y se permita a los buques cazaminas de la Armada colaborar con los arqueólogos para que no se vuelva a repetir un expolio como el que Odyssey pudo cometer en aguas del Estrecho de Gibraltar.
Como ya publicó ABC, Defensa y Cultura acordaron en julio realizar intervenciones arqueológicas en colaboración con las Comunidades Autónomas. Su voluntad era comenzar por Andalucía antes de acabar el verano, pero la Junta, tal vez mal asesorada, impugnó el acuerdo y amenazó con un conflicto de competencias, mientras catalogaba pecios que no podría proteger en solitario.
Ayer, en una rápida reacción, la Junta de Andalucía, por decisión de su presidente, José Antonio Griñán, ha enterrado esta beligerancia y ya ha comunicado que se muestra de acuerdo en la colaboración de la Armada en la defensa del patrimonio sumergido, con el simple añadido de una adenda al convenio interministerial que reconozca su papel en el proyecto.
La pelota está ahora totalmente en el tejado del Ministerio de Cultura, obligado a dar una respuesta a la altura del problema. Primero porque Ángeles González-Sinde firmó el convenio con Carme Chacón. Segundo, porque en los presupuestos de 2009 ya estaba prevista una partida por parte de su antecesor, César Antonio Molina, para el arranque del convenio, partida que Sinde aún no ha ejecutado a un mes del cierre de ejercicio, mientras que los buques cazaminas y de buceo destinados a esta colaboración ya han pasado por una puesta a punto para esta misión. Y tercero porque es responsabilidad de cualquier político cumplir sus compromisos, máxime cuando involucran a otros ministerios e instituciones.
Una semana crítica
Pero es que además el Ministerio de Cultura está emplazado a actuar con rapidez, porque la última semana de noviembre trae citas en las que estará presente el fantasma de la desidia del Gobierno ante el caso Odyssey.
El mismo lunes, la ministra González-Sinde presidirá -en Sevilla, precisamente- la Conferencia Sectorial de Cultura, que reúne a los responsables autonómicos del ramo. Es de esperar que, tras los últimos acontecimientos, allí se hable del Plan Nacional de Arqueología Subacuática, al menos en el capítulo de ruegos y preguntas.
Pero en caso de que la titular de Cultura decida mantenerse pasiva, sólo tendrá que esperar hasta el miércoles para recibir otro aviso, porque el Congreso de los Diputados debatirá ese día la Proposición no de ley del diputado popular José Ignacio Landaluce, que dice así:
«El Congreso de los Diputados insta al Gobierno a desarrollar y culminar, con carácter urgente, los acuerdos y convenios del Ministerio de Cultura con la Armada y las diferentes Comunidades Autónomas costeras, relativos al cumplimiento de los objetivos del Plan Nacional de Protección del Patrimonio Subacuático, así como proceder a la aprobación de los recursos necesarios que permitan la protección, conservación y difusión de nuestro patrimonio arqueológico subacuático.» En resumen, fuerte marejada en el Ministerio. Mejora el estado del mar en Andalucía...
http://www.abc.es/20091121/cultura-cultura/caso-odyssey-pelota-esta-20091121.html
FISHEYE
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Thats a good idea for deception.Say you are looking for mineral deposits and find a wreck and bring up the treasure.No one will know.Kinda like the hughes glomar explorer/Project Jennifer in hawaii looking for maganese nodules and bringing up part of a russian sub.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Interesting article, but about what was expected. It is obvious how the final ruling will go. Right or wrong, we have Odyssey to thank for the first solid step against future marine salvage, and probably land salvage as well.
Don Jose de La Mancha .
Don Jose de La Mancha .
Presumably all this activity centers on the Mercedes/Black Swan wreck, but remember that Andalucia was trying to stop Odyssey's agreed recovery of the (supposed) Sussex, a British ship in Spanish waters. Does this latest alliance between Andalucia and Spain suggest that Spain is heading to a position where it will no longer recognizes the sovereign rights of other countries, including the USA, which have shipwrecks in Spanish waters? I cannot believe that Spain would take this position, but the traditional laws of the sea don't seem to count much in the Black Swan case, even in the USA.
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