Odyssey treasure will go to Spain!

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

"Not according to Portuguese legislation"

Only a court can decide that, and I think it would be easey for Odyssey to prove the coins are better preserved on the surface than they are underwater. There is no destruction by carfully lifting them the way they did.

Portugal know they have not broken any Portuguese laws as does Spain !

You keep making laugh VOC Three US judges don't have a problem understanding Sovereign Naval war ship, artifacts
taken without permission from Portuguese waters.
Why has Odyssey opted for Permission this time round with the Victory
Ossy

 

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[jeff k]

The Mercedes was found outside the contiguous zone, so what's your point.

It was? That's not the information I have.

Where was it found, then?

Several miles past the contiguous zone. Spain has the exact location, and both Spain & Portugal never claimed it was found in the contiguous zone. You once posted it was 40 NM off the coast. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

 

[VOC]

You keep making laugh VOC Three US judges don't have a problem understanding Sovereign Naval war ship, artifacts
taken without permission from Portuguese waters.
Why has Odyssey opted for Permission this time round with the Victory

I think you need to read the court records again, the case as to the ownership of the coins has yet to be heard before a judge.

Up to now all the case's have been about what courts have the jurisdiction to hear the case.

Spain said goodbye to the coins in 1804, its time to get over it.

I am sure the Spanish Museum's might just be able to afford to buy a few when Odyssey sell them off

What is really good is Spain’s American Lawyer is paying a fortune in Tax in the USA, so let’s keep the case going for as long as possible.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

You keep making laugh VOC Three US judges don't have a problem understanding Sovereign Naval war ship, artifacts
taken without permission from Portuguese waters.
Why has Odyssey opted for Permission this time round with the Victory

I think you need to read the court records again, the case as to the ownership of the coins has yet to be heard before a judge.

Up to now all the case's have been about what courts have the jurisdiction to hear the case.

Spain said goodbye to the coins in 1804, its time to get over it.

I am sure the Spanish Museum's might just be able to afford to buy a few when Odyssey sell them off

What is really good is Spain’s American Lawyer is paying a fortune in Tax in the USA, so let’s keep the case going for as long as possible.

The US navy defense missile war ship's are now based in Cadiz yes Spain! Tax did you say
I like your sense of humor Spain buy from Odyssey

 

[Oceanscience]

The outcome of the Odyssey saga will have a profound impact on all submersed cultural deposits.

I am anxious to see the final results.

Thinking of a pirate shipwreck, who will have a legitimate claim? Is it the nation who's nationality the pirate was?
Is it the nation who's ship sank the pirate?
It it the descendants of the people who were robbed by the pirate?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

The outcome of the Odyssey saga will have a profound impact on all submersed cultural deposits.

I am anxious to see the final results.

Thinking of a pirate shipwreck, who will have a legitimate claim? Is it the nation who's nationality the pirate was?
Is it the nation who's ship sank the pirate?
It it the descendants of the people who were robbed by the pirate?

Good question Oceanscience. How does the law apply now if goods are stolen and then later found ?
As far a I know the thief has no rights or his family, Does the keepers finders law apply?
And what time span, Francis Drake was a pirate and was backed by the English queen and she made her own rules to suit herself as she was jealous of Spain.
International Law

 

[Vox veritas]

The Mercedes was found outside the contiguous zone, so what's your point.

It was? That's not the information I have.

Where was it found, then?

Several miles past the contiguous zone. Spain has the exact location, and both Spain & Portugal never claimed it was found in the contiguous zone. You once posted it was 40 NM off the coast. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Jeff, the community of enthusiasts to shipwrecks is eager to know how was that a ship of OME located many miles from the Portuguese coast, in the middle of nowhere (like a needle in a haystack) 17 tons of coins.
Perhaps it was with a map of wrecks of a fisherman from the Algarve? (For example, I had one!)
Maybe I'm wrong, but OME never said publicly how "dropped" over so many tons of coins. Correct me if otherwise.

 

[jeff k]

The Mercedes was found outside the contiguous zone, so what's your point.

It was? That's not the information I have.

Where was it found, then?

Several miles past the contiguous zone. Spain has the exact location, and both Spain & Portugal never claimed it was found in the contiguous zone. You once posted it was 40 NM off the coast. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Jeff, the community of enthusiasts to shipwrecks is eager to know how was that a ship of OME located many miles from the Portuguese coast, in the middle of nowhere (like a needle in a haystack) 17 tons of coins.
Perhaps it was with a map of wrecks of a fisherman from the Algarve? (For example, I had one!)
Maybe I'm wrong, but OME never said publicly how "dropped" over so many tons of coins. Correct me if otherwise.

I was not on the Ocean Alert, so I have no idea. I do know they found hundreds of wrecks over the past 7 years.

 

[Vox veritas]

The Mercedes was found outside the contiguous zone, so what's your point.

It was? That's not the information I have.

Where was it found, then?

Several miles past the contiguous zone. Spain has the exact location, and both Spain & Portugal never claimed it was found in the contiguous zone. You once posted it was 40 NM off the coast. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Jeff, the community of enthusiasts to shipwrecks is eager to know how was that a ship of OME located many miles from the Portuguese coast, in the middle of nowhere (like a needle in a haystack) 17 tons of coins.
Perhaps it was with a map of wrecks of a fisherman from the Algarve? (For example, I had one!)
Maybe I'm wrong, but OME never said publicly how "dropped" over so many tons of coins. Correct me if otherwise.

I was not on the Ocean Alert, so I have no idea. I do know they found hundreds of wrecks over the past 7 years.

Very strange. In other discussion forums you are considered the great "informed".

 

[VOC]

M&B Ossy wrote "As far a I know the thief has no rights "

That is why Spain should have no rights to these coins, Spain are the "theif" in this case.

 

[trinidad]

So, what´s the point about knowing how OME got the information that took them to the site? Is it not usual at any company to keep secret some kind of information? Vox, Alexandre: are you suggesting something "dark" about this issue? Just curiousity.

 

[ivan salis]

how they found the wreck really doesn't matter * what does really matter is 3 basic things *

#1 where the wreck was actually located at * if in international "high seas" (this matters because if in the "open high seas" area - no permits are needed to salvage a "cargo vessel" -- but if its a counties territorail waters "permits" might have been requried from that country to legally salvage it --so its "exact" location does matter)
then
#2 - by carrying a large amount of "private persons money" was the vessel in effect a the sea going equal to a modern day "armored car" service rather than a normal " non goods carrying" warship ?--did the people who's money was being transported "pay" a fee for it to be "safely" conveyed ? -- like say the king's fifth? a 20% tax paid on the value of all items returning to spain from the "new world" to the king to return on a "spanish" vessel -- if so the vessel was in effect acting as "for hire security" - much the way a person might hire a modern day armored car service to transport a item of great value. --from one place to another.
then
#3 once placed upon the vessel - did the money becomes "spain's" --or did it still belong to the owners who were shipping it ? -- once the vessel was sunk , if the money belonged to spain (as spain claims) * then why did spain pay the owners of the money for its loss ? ( and if spain says it "owns" the money BECAUSE they paid for its loss -- then they in effect admit they were basically doing a "for hire transport of the money" which would void the vessels warship status --because by paying off the loss ,it shows that - they were acting as "shipping agents" the way a "hired cargo vessel' would do -- it is a sea going custom that if one hires a vessel to transport cargo and the "transport shipper" loses or damages the goods --thus failing to do what they were hired to do --that the shipper must "make good" the loss -- thus most all cargo shipments are "insured" by the shippers thru cargo insurance brokers .(and very few persons will ship goods "naked" without insurance since to do so exposes one to the risk of total loss - which is way too risky )

being a 27 year merchant seaman (before retiring) and coming from a family with a 300 year long sea going tradition -- i am well aware of the "customs of the sea" a cargo carrying vessel once abandoned or sunk is "open prey"for salvage to anyone that boards or salvages her goods --if say a ship catches fire * and the crew abandons ship -- another nearby vessel sees this and comes along side and some of the crew from the other vessel boards the "on fire" vessel and manages to put out the fire and "save" the vessel -- the saving vessel now has "salvage rights" / ownership of the saved vessel. -- thats why the captain is supposed to be the last one off , he is supposed protect the shipping owners (companys) interest thus he is to be sure before leaving that the vessel is "unsavible" with the manpower and equiptment that he has on hand -- and only once he is sure of that --only then can the captian legally --"abandon ship" -- and he must be sure that as much as humanly possible that all hands are accounted for and off the vessel BEFORE HE LEAVES (because once the captain leaves the vessel is concidered legally "abandoned" and if left behind crew members were to save the vessel after the captain leaves it * they would then in effect "own the vessel"-- thats why the italian cruise ship capt is in such deep trouble. (he left the vessel knowing fulll well that there lots of people still on the vessel -- thus he abandoned his duties as captain of the vessel and acted in a shameful and cowardly manner.

 

[Alexandre]

Several miles past the contiguous zone. Spain has the exact location, and both Spain & Portugal never claimed it was found in the contiguous zone. You once posted it was 40 NM off the coast. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Geez... who will trust confidencial documents anymore?

 

[jeff k]

Supreme Court to review case of treasure claimed by Spain

Released : Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:39 PM

Washington, Feb 8 (EFE).- The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to consider a motion from a Florida firm seeking an emergency injunction against a judicial order compelling the company to hand over to Spain $500 million in gold and silver coins salvaged from the bottom of the Atlantic in May 2007.

The brief submitted by Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. will be reviewed "in the coming days" by Justice Clarence Thomas, high court sources told Efe Wednesday.

Supreme Court intervention is Odyssey's only hope of avoiding the handover of the hoard to Spain.

Odyssey filed the brief days after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta rejected the Tampa-based company's motion to stay the same court's November decision ordering the firm to turn over the coins.

The 11th Circuit is expected this week to formally convey its decision to the District Court in Tampa that originally heard the case, which will then establish a timetable for the handover of the coins.

U.S. District Judge Steven D. Merryday ruled in December 2009 that Spain was the rightful owner of the treasure Odyssey salvaged in the same area off Portugal where the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, a Spanish navy frigate, was destroyed in battle in 1804.

Within days of recovering the $500 million in coins, Odyssey took the loot to Gibraltar and loaded it onto a chartered Boeing-757 for transport back to Florida.

The treasure remains at a secret location in Florida, but Spanish officials have been allowed to conduct periodic inspections to verify that the cargo is intact.

Madrid says the treasure came from the Mercedes and that the vessel and its contents rightfully belong to Spain under the principle of sovereign immunity.

Odyssey, however, contends that contemporaneous Spanish diplomatic communications show the Mercedes was on a commercial mission at the time of her sinking, invalidating Madrid's sovereign immunity claim.

The attorney representing the Spanish government, James Goold, told Efe earlier this week that Odyssey's Supreme Court brief relies on arguments "that have been rejected at every stage of the case."

Update: Judge Thomas denied Odyssey's motion.

High court rejects stay in Spanish treasure case

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) — A U.S. Supreme Court justice has rejected an appeal by Florida deep-sea explorers who wanted to hold onto a trove of Spanish shipwreck treasure while the courts finish sorting out ownership rights.

Federal courts have ruled that the 17 tons of silver coins and other artifacts found by Odyssey Marine Exploration off the Portuguese coast belong to Spain and must be surrendered. Odyssey sought to delay handing it over while the company continued its appeals.

A federal court rejected the request for a stay last week. Odyssey appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and Justice Clarence Thomas denied the application without comment on Thursday.

Odyssey said there is at least one other motion for an emergency stay before the U.S. Supreme Court.

 

[Alexandre]

Come on.... where's the fat lady when you need one to stop singing?

 

[Darren in NC]

Forgive my laziness in not using Google, but has any investigation been done into the favors mentioned in the wiki-leaks?

 

[Alexandre]

Forgive my laziness in not using Google, but has any investigation been done into the favors mentioned in the wiki-leaks?

Isn´t your judicial system independent from the Government?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Supreme Court to review case of treasure claimed by Spain

Released : Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:39 PM

Washington, Feb 8 (EFE).- The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to consider a motion from a Florida firm seeking an emergency injunction against a judicial order compelling the company to hand over to Spain $500 million in gold and silver coins salvaged from the bottom of the Atlantic in May 2007.

The brief submitted by Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. will be reviewed "in the coming days" by Justice Clarence Thomas, high court sources told Efe Wednesday.

Supreme Court intervention is Odyssey's only hope of avoiding the handover of the hoard to Spain.

Odyssey filed the brief days after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta rejected the Tampa-based company's motion to stay the same court's November decision ordering the firm to turn over the coins.

The 11th Circuit is expected this week to formally convey its decision to the District Court in Tampa that originally heard the case, which will then establish a timetable for the handover of the coins.

U.S. District Judge Steven D. Merryday ruled in December 2009 that Spain was the rightful owner of the treasure Odyssey salvaged in the same area off Portugal where the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, a Spanish navy frigate, was destroyed in battle in 1804.

Within days of recovering the $500 million in coins, Odyssey took the loot to Gibraltar and loaded it onto a chartered Boeing-757 for transport back to Florida.

The treasure remains at a secret location in Florida, but Spanish officials have been allowed to conduct periodic inspections to verify that the cargo is intact.

Madrid says the treasure came from the Mercedes and that the vessel and its contents rightfully belong to Spain under the principle of sovereign immunity.

Odyssey, however, contends that contemporaneous Spanish diplomatic communications show the Mercedes was on a commercial mission at the time of her sinking, invalidating Madrid's sovereign immunity claim.

The attorney representing the Spanish government, James Goold, told Efe earlier this week that Odyssey's Supreme Court brief relies on arguments "that have been rejected at every stage of the case."

Update: Judge Thomas denied Odyssey's motion.

High court rejects stay in Spanish treasure case

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) — A U.S. Supreme Court justice has rejected an appeal by Florida deep-sea explorers who wanted to hold onto a trove of Spanish shipwreck treasure while the courts finish sorting out ownership rights.

Federal courts have ruled that the 17 tons of silver coins and other artifacts found by Odyssey Marine Exploration off the Portuguese coast belong to Spain and must be surrendered. Odyssey sought to delay handing it over while the company continued its appeals.

A federal court rejected the request for a stay last week. Odyssey appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and Justice Clarence Thomas denied the application without comment on Thursday.

Odyssey said there is at least one other motion for an emergency stay before the U.S. Supreme Court.

They can't stop the US Marshall's releasing the goods to Spain next week ! Once the goods are back in Spain you can keep spending your share holders money in the courts.
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

M&B Ossy wrote "As far a I know the thief has no rights "

That is why Spain should have no rights to these coins, Spain are the "theif" in this case.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black My English friend , do you still beat Drakes drum
Ossy

 

[Darren in NC]

Isn't your judicial system independent from the Government?

One would like to think so, Alexandre. I have my doubts as I trust neither. While there are certain people I trust, I place no trust in corrupt systems. It's one of my reasons I doubted the wiki-leak revelations would come to anything, thus my question.