Original photos Stone Maps

[somehiker]

From the Tom K map collection. Here is the other that goes with it. View attachment 1290940

Thanks for sharing !
To both Tom and yourself.

Regards:Wayne

 

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[Azquester]

Travis following an old map to a collection of stones just seems unlikely to me. Especially on his own.
Travis engraving parts of the ground map in stone as a way to attract investors and control the release of information makes sense. Only he would know what was original and what was altered.

I wonder where the map is that Travis followed to the sites. The ones in the TK collection aren't them they're to vague and they show them back over by black mountain between there and Q creek. I did find some more grave like holes near this area but having not seen the maps just posted from TK's collection I left them alone thinking it was just someone looking for placer gold. It is on a nice flat spot in an area you would pull off and possibly camp . With holes just like the site near the bridge and they may be connected. I won't go there any more already been fooled by old Travis the trickster and those attempting to become legends by self annointment just as he did.

 

[Carl995]

So Travis graduated from making hide/barn/drawn maps to making stone maps to sell/scam people with......how obvious....

 

[deducer]

Ditto Frank, thanks for sharing.

 

[Hal Croves]

So Travis graduated from making hide/barn/drawn maps to making stone maps to sell/scam people with......how obvious....

Carrol,
How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[Hal Croves]

deducer

I believe how what Ryan calls as " ground map " to be what the Peraltas made in their attempt to find the treasure rooms . i believe the story go like this :

The King of Spain have heard how some Spaniards miners in collaboration with Jesuit priests , kept a large amount of the " fifth " for themself and hid it somewhere NE of Casa Grande . To find this location , the King gave a land grant to the Peraltas who were miners an have Jesuits friends . Their Jesuit friends provided them with a set of stone maps ( not stone crosses included ) which allegedly would lead them to the treasure rooms . But the stone tablets/maps that we know , were not so easy to be decrypted . So they ventured in the Superstitions to look for something which would help them to find the spot . They never found the treasure rooms but instead they found very rich gold placers . Tracking these gold placers to their mother lode , they opened and worked some mines around Black Top Mesa . Realizing how they couldn't to recognize the stone trail with the heart in the fields and couldn't to decrypt the Witch/Horse stone , they ( the Peraltas ) decided the stone maps to be buried in a specific place and this place to be marked in the Ground Map . Later this map came in the possession of Travis and helped him to found the stone maps ( without the Latin heart ) .

Ironically and incidentally , the Peraltas tracking another rich placer to the source , found a rich gold mine ( Apache/ Sombrero mine ) which was in the stone trail/Latin heart map region . They quiclky understood how the mine was in a sacred place but the greed made them to plan how to receive a bigest amount of ore in a small time frame . So they returned with many miners to do a single season work . But this was their signature on their death certificate . The Apaches who had an eye on them , saw them on the sacred place and were preparing for battle . Because the site was in a rough remote place and difficult to attack , the Apache waited until the Peraltas and the Mexican miners were ready to return to the Mexico . The Peraltas with their miners never would been able to get the sacred ore to Mexico .

bump.

 

[Carl995]

Carrol,
How did you come to this conclusion?

Hal, it's my belief.
when i was young I believed the stone maps till I was about 13.
My dad & I realized the maps don't coincide with the codes on the markers & the saguaros.
I only believe in the codes on the saguaros & stone markers (just like how he deciphered the Kings 5th treasure).
Can't fake 100's of years decay on a saguaro.
Carrol

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, it's my belief.
when i was young I believed the stone maps till I was about 13.
My dad & I realized the maps don't coincide with the codes on the markers & the saguaros.
I only believe in the codes on the saguaros & stone markers (just like how he deciphered the Kings 5th treasure).
Can't fake 100's of years decay on a saguaro.
Carrol

Carrol,
Hard to believe that someone inspired enough to leave behind coded markers and saguaros, wouldn't take the time to record those locations on some type of map.

 

[azdave35]

Carrol,
Hard to believe that someone inspired enough to leave behind coded markers and saguaros, wouldn't take the time to record those locations on some type of map.

hal..the saguaros was their map ..they are mostly destroyed by idiots now but if you had seen them before when they were still in place you'd realize what an ingenious system it was

 

[Carl995]

hal..the saguaros was their map ..they are mostly destroyed by idiots now but if you had seen them before when they were still in place you'd realize what an ingenious system it was

Saguaros with codes span for MANY MANY miles leading into the area. One was an astronomer, i believe was the code maker.

 

[Carl995]

Carrol,
Hard to believe that someone inspired enough to leave behind coded markers and saguaros, wouldn't take the time to record those locations on some type of map.

if I remember right they were to have nothing with them returning to face the music.

 

[Hal Croves]

hal..the saguaros was their map ..they are mostly destroyed by idiots now but if you had seen them before when they were still in place you'd realize what an ingenious system it was

azdave,

I agree with you regarding the saguaros and their use as a system of trail markers and, ingenious is the correct way to describe it.
Still, I don't think that I fully understand it other than the obvious.

Anyway, how would one communicate the location of this "system" to future generations if not with a map?

 

[Hal Croves]

if I remember right they were to have nothing with them returning to face the music.

I guess it depends on who you believe "they" are?
I personally believe that "they" worked their mines in the Superstitions as late as 1853.

 

[markmar]

bump.

Hal

That was just a version . I could tell you another more accurate , but not now .

 

[azdave35]

azdave,

I agree with you regarding the saguaros and their use as a system of trail markers and, ingenious is the correct way to describe it.
Still, I don't think that I fully understand it other than the obvious.

Anyway, how would one communicate the location of this "system" to future generations if not with a map?

hal...i think you are giving those people more credit that they deserve....they weren't worried about future generations...the saguaro trail markers were done so THEY could relocate their workings

 

[Hal Croves]

hal...i think you are giving those people more credit that they deserve....they weren't worried about future generations...the saguaro trail markers were done so THEY could relocate their workings

I have a general idea of where some of these saguaro markers are (were) thanks impart to cactusjumper's stone map solution.
It would be hard to explain any authentic map that used the same trail system.

Anyway, I agree that the saguaros, when read together, define a map, but they are as you wrote, "markers".
Markers are not maps.
Actually, here, I think that both were used to ensure success.
It would have been a long, expensive, and dangerous journey from Sonora to the Rio Saldo.


If "they" include or were the Peraltas, "they" would have had 32 years as citizens of Mexico to develop the mines of the Rio Saldo (1821-1853)... this is the Mexican period.
From 1821, to the first exploration of the Superstitions, I define as the Spanish period (Including Jesuits) 1732(?).
Adding a potential 89 years to the time mining could have happened in the range.

About 121 years of potential time to explore, discover, and develop Las Minas Del Sombreo.
That is four, perhaps five generations.




While I am not convinced of a massacre, I do now believe that Mexicans were mining the Superstitions.

 

[azdave35]

I have a general idea of where some of these saguaro markers are (were) thanks impart to cactusjumper's stone map solution.
It would be hard to explain any authentic map that used the same trail system.

Anyway, I agree that the saguaros, when read together, define a map, but they are as you wrote, "markers".
Markers are not maps.
Actually, here, I think that both were used to ensure success.
It would have been a long, expensive, and dangerous journey from Sonora to the Rio Saldo.


If "they" include or were the Peraltas, "they" would have had 32 years as citizens of Mexico to develop the mines of the Rio Saldo (1821-1853)... this is the Mexican period.
From 1821, to the first exploration of the Superstitions, I define as the Spanish period (Including Jesuits) 1732(?).
Adding a potential 89 years to the time mining could have happened in the range.

About 121 years of potential time to explore, discover, and develop Las Minas Del Sombreo.
That is four, perhaps five generations.




While I am not convinced of a massacre, I do now believe that Mexicans were mining the Superstitions.

hal....there is too much evidence of mexican mining in the area not to believe it...and before the mexicans the spaniards were there...too many spanish artifacts have been found in the area....suits of armor...muskets... etc...as far as the cactus markers go the ones in the mountains were destroyed back in the 50's and 60's....there are still a few in the goldfield area but not many ...in other areas of the state that haven't had as much publicity as the superstition's the cactus's haven't been vandalized yet

 

[Hal Croves]

hal....there is too much evidence of mexican mining in the area not to believe it...and before the mexicans the spaniards were there...too many spanish artifacts have been found in the area....suits of armor...muskets... etc...as far as the cactus markers go the ones in the mountains were destroyed back in the 50's and 60's....there are still a few in the goldfield area but not many ...in other areas of the state that haven't had as much publicity as the superstition's the cactus's haven't been vandalized yet

Tonto officials might argue with your conclusions.


Amazing.
Hard to believe that someone as grounded as you would believe in Spanish artifacts being found in the Superstitions..
Certainly a huge leap of faith without seeing these things first hand and in their undisturbed discovery location.

 

[sgtfda]

I know of a helmet that was found

 

[azdave35]

Tonto officials might argue with your conclusions.


Amazing.
Hard to believe that someone as grounded as you would believe in Spanish artifacts being found in the Superstitions..
Certainly a huge leap of faith without seeing these things first hand and in their undisturbed discovery location.

i generally only believe what i see....i've seen some of the artifacts in person and in pics...