Police send unpleasant email

[Xraywolf]

Can the positions be summarized here ?
Is there actually someone here claiming that anything remotely valuable found via metal detecting should be turned over to law enforcement ?

Really simple, what you do with the finds you dig up in the ground and in the water is your business, and NO ONE ELSES.

I agree.
Who claims otherwise ?

 

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Doesn't this seem like a waste of time? Like really, who got on here and said that they refuse to turn in TRACEABLE items? No one. Fighting for no reason. The biggest reason why I am turned off from this site. The holier than thou people here should leave their preaching for someone who is actually causing harm to our hobby. Did I miss something? Did someone get on here and cause mayhem? Is someone here ruining our hobby? If so let me know because I seem to have missed it.
Dave.

 

[jb7487]

Muddy, yes, this is a waste of time. Mainly because as usual, people are arguing in binary (black and white). You see this in politics as well and it is a very common technique in debates. The reality is that only a very, very small percentage of people (less than 1%) end up operating at either end of the spectrum. The rest of us are somewhere in between (but not necessarily in the middle). But that very small minority ends up ruining it for the rest of us.

So there are indeed people who take a staunch "finder's keepers" attitude and don't turn in traceable items. They are a very small minority and are not posting here. But there are also people on the fence who struggle with turning in things that the know in their hearts could be claimed. Hopefully those people do the right thing. But it is a complete judgement call because you never know what items someone will actually take the time to try and recover. It is pretty clear that a cheap, dimestore ring buried 6" underground is probably not something you should bother turning into the police. And the law often says that you don't have to turn it in because it isn't valuable enough. Again, there is a spectrum of possibilities and on one end you have pop tops that are 12" deep and on the other end you have a $1Million dollar ring left on a picnic table. Most of what we find is in between making it necessary for us to use our best judgement.

Tom got into this predicament because he advertised a find in Craigslist. At this point he has openly admitted that he believes someone would try to recover this lost item and that it is valuable enough to merit listing. The police are telling him that once he's made that distinction he should turn it into the proper authorities instead of trying to fly solo. I can't disagree with that given that it is the law. So Tom brought this onto himself. But I'm glad he did because it has certainly been a learning experience for all of us.

There are cases where the law and common sense do not jive. If you find a $10,000 ring buried 12" deep in an old park, common sense says that it has been there a long time and the odds that someone would come to claim it in the next 90 days is next to nil. Turning it over to the police only increases the likelihood that a less than honest officer will find a way to make it disappear. It happens. There is no denying it. However, the law would likely say that you MUST turn it in because of its value. Here is where it gets tricky. You know deep in your heart that there is no way the owner is going to come forward and you can't trace the owner yourself even if you tried. You know that you are breaking the law by not turning it in. But you also know that turning it in to the police will do no real good other than potentially establish you as the rightful owner after 90 days. This comes at the risk of losing it completely. So in this case it is reasonable for someone to decide to keep the item and not bother turning it in at the risk of potentially getting in trouble with the law.

This is all well and good but we all know that there are people out there making "judgement calls" that are only fooling themselves. They may sit here on a forum and tell us that they would try to find the rightful owner of an object but they continuously convince themselves that there is no point. Subconsciously their greed overrides their desire to do the right thing and they end up keeping stuff that clearly should have been turned in.

Finally, I really don't think that THIS particular issue ranks up there very high in terms of giving our hobby a bad name. I think we have much bigger fish to fry and this is another one of those "straw that broke the camel's back" issues. I have much bigger issues with people who believe they have the right to hunt all public land simply because they pay taxes. They piss off locals by hunting the curbs of residential streets without permission. Then when the property owner or neighbor confronts them they act like a jerk and start screaming about how it is their right and they are doing nothing wrong. Regardless, we have a duty to put our best foot forward and behave responsibly when we are in situations like this. That doesn't mean that we have to sit back and take all of this abuse. Again, it isn't black and white. But common sense should prevail. I read a post by Mumsie the other day where some (likely drunk) jerk was screaming at her for metal detecting at a public beach. You don't have to tolerate that type of behavior. But that is a far cry from someone confronting you for digging in the easement in front of their home. In their minds they "own" the land and you do not. So fighting with them about it only causes hard feelings. And you are likely not in the right anyway. Even if you technically are it is better for the sake of the hobby to politely let them know that you think the law is on your side but for harmony's sake you will gladly leave.

So to me we need to take a harder look at permission and other issues that truly make us look bad. We have people who are jumping out of their trucks in the middle of nowhere and detecting lands that they claim are "abandoned". These people are breaking the law and there is no "gray area" here. Countless "banner finds" are being posted by people who are breaking the law for the sake of finding the next best thing. And everyone gives them a hearty "WTG" and "Nice find!" on a daily basis. In my case it is a bad case of sour grapes because I'm not finding all this glorious stuff. But that doesn't make it right. Kudos to those that hunt legally and responsibly and find great items. Shame on those who exploit loopholes or simply break the law for the sake of the next big find. I wonder what the backlash would be if the "today's finds" section required you to honestly admit to where you found the item and whether or not you had permission from the owner to hunt there. I would guess that it would get ugly very fast with a lot of people coming down hard on those that do not get proper permission. In many ways these people are thieves and give this hobby a very bad name.

Take care.

 

[hogge]

JB7487: I do alot of my hunting on public land. If it's NOT posted I hunt it. Both detecting and deer hunting. I've been checked many times by the EPO on public land, and never once have they told me I couldn't hunt on public land. Regulations are different from town to town, and state to state. Am I going to, as you say, "Do the right thing", and ask the town or state officials if I can hunt this land? Of course not. All you're doing is opening a can of worms and inviting regulations and restrictions. I have obtained permission from many landowners to hunt private property. But don't call me a thief for hunting public land. I think you "Felix Unger" types need to stick to your front yards and "Tot Lots". Find your "battery" money , and leave the true relic and treasure hunters alone. I'm sure this would be a truly exciting site with all the clad and pulltabs being found. Not to mention the occassional silver dime. . Get a life!

 

[jb7487]

hogge, I didn't call you a thief for hunting public land so don't get your panties in a bunch. We have people out here hunting PRIVATE land without permission simply because no one is around or the land looks abandoned to them. In my opinion these people are thieves and give all of us a bad name.

As for hunting public land without permission you appear to be in agreement with Tom (the original poster of this thread). If you want to read what I think about public land and permission then you can find one of the many threads out here where he and I have discussed it ad nauseum. Permission on public land is a heated issue for sure. And there is no right or wrong answer. However, there is a difference between hunting a public park that has been specifically set aside for public use, and hunting the easements in front of private houses. There are also public lands that have NOT been set aside for public use that you would be a fool to hunt without permission (public utility sites, the statehouse garden, the public zoo grounds, and many more). So making any sort of blanket statement about permission and public land really doesn't help the discussion at all and is the typical binary argument that people want to make.

Either way, there is no excuse for being nasty to me. Many people out here are posting about getting tired of others telling them what to do. I for one am getting tired of those people being nasty to everyone else just because the "message" hits a little too close to home. Maybe you should reread my original post again and ask yourself if it really said what you thought it said and if not, why you got so angry about it.

Take care.

 

[jb7487]

Amen SWR!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Treasure hunter, et al, etc... : The law makes no distinction about "traceable" items (ID's in them, traceable class rings, cell-phones with sim cards, etc...). I would imagine its strictly based on a value, determined state-by-state, period

And the law makes no distinction of depth of the target, and age you *think* the target is. I mean, let's face it: we've all dug up flukes, right? A memorial at 7" (fell down a gopher hole), or a merc. barely under the grass (came up with a gopher recently), etc... And on the wet salt beach, there's no way to know how long a ring has been there. Sand erosion and buildup is constantly going on, so after storm erosion, a clad dime can be right next to a seated dime, at the exact same depth

So do the right thing and turn in all your jewelry, above the set-threshold value, to lost & found. Or better yet, send it all to me, and I will absolve your conscience of all guilt

I did not get to the police dept. in that small neighboring town yesterday. Jobs at my company ran over-time, so I'll have to get on to it next week. I'll report back to the forum, with some hypotheticals put forth to the lady.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

The next time I see a uniform police officer standing beside me in 4 feet of ocean water, and 2-3 foot swells, I will ask him, if I have one and he wants it he can have it. Other then this scenario all finds I dig up stay in my possession unless someone can identify them by engraving or identifying marks with out my showing the find in my hand.

 

[Xraywolf]

Some folks will always look at a metal detectorist as a scavenger, not much can be done about that.
The majority of folks see it as what it is - Just another hobby, another way for people to spend their time.

I remember seeing old guys when I was a kid detecting, I'd think "wow thats pretty pathetic, spending all that time & effort looking for lose change" ... Little did I realize at the time the varied amount of goodies underground, nor the pleasure one gets from trying to find them - A "thrill of the hunt" kinda thing.

People keeping what they find is an absolute non issue, as far as giving people a bad impression of metal detectors, as at least one here has proposed.
What ticks people off is:

* Leaving craters in your wake, large or small.
Truly tacky, and lazy.
* Trespassing private property.
Don't do to someone what you wouldn't want done to yourself.
Semi private, as in the case of grass easements/medians that border peoples properly, should also in my opinion be left alone. Its not worth possibly finding a wheatie or merc to invade someones sense of property & privacy, engender hard feelings and possibly start a confrontation.
* People hunting off limits federal lands.
Akin to poaching, and even grave digging in some cases, boundaried battle grounds & historic sites should always be given a wide berth.

If there are any sticklers of the law who insists on digesting everything the government spoon feeds, like a good little sheep, and who want to turn in anything "valuable" that they find to the "proper authorities", have at it - But don't try to impose your so-called righteousness on others.

 

[Sandman]

I totally agree Treasure Hunter. It can be the goodie two shoes that can ruin the hobby the most by asking every authority if it is OK to metal detect here or there and can I please keep what I find. It is the reason many want to detect, the chance to find something neat. Many of us try to find the owner of lost property. It is the slobs that use shovels on lawns that do more harm than good regardless if they turn in all the goodies they found since someone somewhere might want them back. LOL.

 

[hogge]

So to me we need to take a harder look at permission and other issues that truly make us look bad. We have people who are jumping out of their trucks in the middle of nowhere and detecting lands that they claim are "abandoned". These people are breaking the law and there is no "gray area" here. Countless "banner finds" are being posted by people who are breaking the law for the sake of finding the next best thing. And everyone gives them a hearty "WTG" and "Nice find!" on a daily basis. In my case it is a bad case of sour grapes because I'm not finding all this glorious stuff. But that doesn't make it right. Kudos to those that hunt legally and responsibly and find great items. Shame on those who exploit loopholes or simply break the law for the sake of the next big find. I wonder what the backlash would be if the "today's finds" section required you to honestly admit to where you found the item and whether or not you had permission from the owner to hunt there. I would guess that it would get ugly very fast with a lot of people coming down hard on those that do not get proper permission. In many ways these people are thieves and give this hobby a very bad name.

Take care.
[/quote]No....I don't think I misunderstood you. This paragraph spells out your opinion and stance quite clear. No "Grey Area" on this one. If I drive out in the middle of nowhere, looking for spots to hunt, and I see a piece of unposted property, it obviously belongs to the town. I NEVER HUNT POSTED PROPERTY! If someone owns the property, and didn't want you on it, they would have posted it for trespassers. I've never been confronted by a landowner on unposted property. I don't see where this violates any laws or ethics codes. I have respect for the land and replace all my dig holes. If you feel hunting lands, such as these, is not proper etticate, that's your opinion. Passing your self-righteous beliefs onto myself and others will get you just what it's been giving you in your hunting. "Zilch" Just because you don't hunt like some of us do, doesn't make it wrong or against the law. So if it's that big a deal, to have permission to hunt a parcel of town owned land, go ask the Mayor or Board of Selectmen for permission. Tell us what they say. Of course, that would be their opinion, or interpretation,(or MIS interpretation), of what you can or cannot do. You know...If we actually sat down together, and had a conversation, we may end up thinking along the same lines.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

hogee, there ya go! I like that idea Before anyone can get their find put on a banner, they have to go through a forum-checklist to make sure it's totally a legal find.

1) If it was found on private land, did you have permission?

2) If it was found on public land, did you have written permission from the city or state or county or federal entity that governs that land?

3) If it has a value of over XX amount (whatever statute covers the area the person posting lives in), did the finder go through the proper lost-&-found laws, wait the required amount of time (to make sure no one claimed it)?

If the person can not prove he abided by every single law that governs his item, then he will not be allowed to post it for show. Agreed?

 

[hogge]

hogee, there ya go! I like that idea Before anyone can get their find put on a banner, they have to go through a forum-checklist to make sure it's totally a legal find.

1) If it was found on private land, did you have permission?

2) If it was found on public land, did you have written permission from the city or state or county or federal entity that governs that land?

3) If it has a value of over XX amount (whatever statute covers the area the person posting lives in), did the finder go through the proper lost-&-found laws, wait the required amount of time (to make sure no one claimed it)?

If the person can not prove he abided by every single law that governs his item, then he will not be allowed to post it for show. Agreed?

I would also throw in GPS'ing, not only the site, but the exact hole you found it in. Maybe some evidence can be gathered off the dirt on the relic, and the dirt in the hole, to crosscheck, and ensure that is where you truly found it!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey, and for those of you who don't think this applies to old coins, think again! If you think you can "go by the face value of the coin", I think you would loose in a court of law. Ie.: a 1901 s Barber quarter may have a face value of .25c, right? But a collectors value of potentially thousands of $$, right?

Here's a TRUE story: There is a certain elementary school in the central coast area of CA. It was built in the late 1930s, so it's not particularly old. One day, many years ago, a guy was detecting it (for what he thought would be just angling for common silver, modern jewelry, or whatever). Imagine his surprise when he popped up a beautiful seated half in the sandbox! Then moving along, a little while later, he pulls up an awesome bust quarter! He figures "gee, there must have been some sort of old house or building or activity here BEFORE the school was built, since obviously these are much older than the date of the school". He tells a friend or two, and before long, a few of them are trying their luck in the grass, sand box, etc... They also find crisp early bust coins, seateds, silver dollars, etc... By the time it was over, between 3 or 4 guys, they had pulled about 15 such beautiful coins from this relatively modern school. They all ventured wild guesses about how there might have been a stage stop there before the school, etc..

Then one day, one of the guys is out there md'ing away, and a janitor comes out to talk to him. The janitor tells him to "be on the lookout for old coins". The md'r ....... without divulging any info, asks the janitor "really? what's going on?". The janitor proceeded to tell the md'r that earlier that year, a 2nd or 3rd grader, who was a loner kid, had brought his dad's coin collection to school for show-&-tell. Since the kid was sort of a loner outcast, he had passed out the coins during recess to other kids in school, to "make friends". Naturally the other kids, not recognizing old halves, dollars, busts, etc... had simply treated them like play money, and gone about their recesses just playing with the coins. A few days later, when the father of the kid got wind of what had happened, immediately went to the school. The entire class was gathered together, and all the kids were told to return their coins, etc... But of course, by then, very few of the coins were retrieved. Most had been taken home, lost in the school yard, etc...

This is a true story! I don't know whether the md'r told the janitor of how he had found some of the coins or not, as I don't know that side of the story.

The reason I tell this true story, do you think that if the father got wind of the fact that his coins had ended up in the hands of a few md'rs (probably well within their rights to md that school yard), that you could simply tell the dad "sorry charlie, this coin has a face value of .50c or $1.00, therefore it falls below the mandatory lost & found laws"? On the contrary, I think that a judge is going to say that those coins are going to be based on the numismatic value, and they are by no means "finders keepers"

Just something to think about

 

[jb7487]

If I drive out in the middle of nowhere, looking for spots to hunt, and I see a piece of unposted property, it obviously belongs to the town.

This this is where we disagree. Posted or not the property belongs to whoever it belongs to. And nine times out of ten the property belongs to a private individual and not the town. If the property belonged to the town then you would likely know it. So yes, digging on land that is more than likely private without asking permission is stealing in my book. Just because it is abandoned or not marked does not give you the right to hunt it. Some will disagree with me here. And those are the ones who are giving this hobby a bad name.

I have a half acre yard in the suburbs. I do NOT post "no trespassing" signs. It should be obvious that I shouldn't have to. The other 1000 homes around me do not post them either. So why the heck do you expect a farmer with 1000 acres to have to go to the trouble of posting signs every 20 feet so that you see them? It makes no sense.

If you are offended by my stance then I can't help you. To me you ALWAYS ask for permission to hunt private property, posted or not. And if you don't know who the owner is of the property you are hunting then you are just fooling yourself so that you can get all the goodies you want. And that is just greedy.

 

[Mark S.]

AGREE!!! Just because there are no posted signs does not mean that you can not be arrested for tresspassing. These actions are blantant and intentional tresspass. Probably 75% of the property in my area is not posted and it is all private. I have 50 acres and it is not posted. So are you telling me my land is fair game for anyone to do whatever they want? I would bet my house that the sherrifs department and the town judge would have a totally different opinion.

The second part is that you probably have not been seen by the landowners. When you are then you will have given the hobby a black eye and that landowner will have a negative opinion on the hobby. I have been denied permission because of just such abuses.

Mark S.

 

[hogge]

Jb: You amuse me. Legal posting is 50 ft. in Ma. Most post at 100 foot intervals. Every piece of property in a town is not owned by private individuals. I don't think anyone will be caught detecting on your 1/2 acre of land. Are you a member of PETA by any chance?

 

[hogge]

LOOK....Is permission the right thing to ask for? ABSOLUTELY. In 10 yrs. in this hobby I have asked for permission no less than 25 times. I was refused once. The landowner, a doctor in Pittsfield was all for it. His wife, a stay at home, do nothing, do gooder, wasn't. (Probably afraid I'd find something) Never once was I ever denied because someone else detected the property and left a mess. These people don't belong in this hobby. I hear this excuse all the time on this site. " I asked, but a previous detectorist left a mess, so I was denied". I think some of these stories are true but more than likely not. Who in their right mind, after getting permission to hunt private property, would leave a mess. It's an excuse used by the owner of the land, because they didn't like YOU. If the owner likes you, you're IN. I like to be direct, and to the point. Some of you may want to work on your people skills.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

mark s. and jb7487, while it may be "trespassing" to go on private, but un-posted land, it is not going to result in an arrest, unless posted or fenced.

A friend of mine's father had a vegatable garden on a corner lot, in a semi-rural area. One day he came to tend his garden *just* in time to see a fellow picking vegetables from the garden, getting in his truck, and leaving. He writes down the license plate # and calls the police. The sherrif's came out and surveyed the situation. They told the garden owner that ....... even with the licence plate #, they could not pursue theft or trespassing charges against the thief, since the lot was not fenced or posted. So the garden owner promptly put up a "no trespassing" sign from there on after.

This seems to tell me that a sign or fence is needed to follow through with prosecution. Not sure if it would apply to something like an obvious front or back yard (which would be an obvious connection to an adjacent house), but it was true of this corner lot, which was not readily/apparently connected to any residence or business.

 

[lostcauses]

Just for information: If you tell some one to get off, they are trespassing three times and they don't, in most areas, it would be criminal trespassing.

As for doing damage such as digging on property with out permission, well you play that risk of said damage to property.

The farm should have gone with theft, not trespassing. Go with damage, not trespassing.