prospective

[mrs.oroblanco]

the EL Paramo placer (waltz's placer


When did Waltz have a placer? While there are stories of Waltz getting a drywasher made, using it to following up the ravines, etc., the LDM is, and always has been, considered a LODE, not a placer.


Beth

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Blindbowman]

joe i get the idea you dont under stand whats happening yet ..

if the statue was in the tunnle in 1959 , and i saw the hoya in 1979 .. and located the placer and the mine in 2006 .. what do you think i am looking for this time ...? ask your self whats left .

 

[Blindbowman]

the EL Paramo placer (waltz's placer


When did Waltz have a placer? While there are stories of Waltz getting a drywasher made, using it to following up the ravines, etc., the LDM is, and always has been, considered a LODE, not a placer.


Beth

i would hate to take all the fun out of it ....lol

 

[Cubfan64]

joe i get the idea you dont under stand whats happening yet ..

if the statue was in the tunnle in 1959 , and i saw the hoya in 1979 .. and located the placer and the mine in 2006 .. what do you think i am looking for this time ...? ask your self whats left .

What are you referring to as the "1959 sighting?"

 

[Blindbowman]

Joe i get the idea you dint under stand whats happening yet ..

if the statue was in the tunnel in 1959 , and i saw the hiya in 1979 .. and located the placer and the mine in 2006 .. what do you think i am looking for this time ...? ask your self whats left .

What are you referring to as the "1959 sighting?"

in 1959 a man was found with a broken leg near crystall springs . he had fallen in a whole and awoke to see a life size gold statue made of plate gold filled with gold dust , he climbed out of the whole and was found by two men . he latter died in the hospital...

i know where the tunnle is ...he was not just dreaming that sighting .. i beleive every word this man said and i can prove he was logically telling the truth ... i Beleive 100% he fell in the TAYOPA tunnle and the statue he saw was in fact the custody listed in the inventory list ...

i know its hard to beleive .. but i have peice together enough evidence to prove it is there and it is real ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

i have been working with the code on the Tayopa letter..it is not the same code as the stones ...very close ..
i now have a list of the mines at this location..

the EL Paramo placer (waltz's placer )
the Jesus Maria y jose mine (Ma Mine )
the TAYOPA mine (PA Mine)
the Remedios (Rio or Hoya)

And more, but this is mainly what I am going to refer to.

You say there is a code in the Tayopa inventory document? That Waltz had a placer mine, which is one and the same with the Paramo placer? There are three mines? I thought there were eight, or nine, or 18? The list of names posted by Don Jose are the names of the individual mines of Tayopa; the story of Tayopa has it that it was originally discovered in 1602 or 1603; so are you taking the position that there were Spanish and Jesuits in the Superstition mountains in 1603? There are many problems with this theory as we have tried to cover before. How could the bells of Tayopa be heard in a village that was only a few miles away, when we know that village location and it is far to the south in Sonora? Then there is the Mesa of the Bell Maker. What mesa are you saying is that mesa? Where was the Real, and the mission church? It is going to be a tough sell to convince some of us that Tayopa is in the Superstitions, much less that it has anything to do with Jacob Waltz.

I know, you have tried to explain this before but I just can't see the connections to make this a believable case.

Just a side note here but the Paramo placer is supposed to be in an adjoining valley to Tayopa. How does that fit with your location? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

"i know its hard to beleive .. but i have peice together enough evidence to prove it is there and it is real ..."

All right, let's say that you are telling us facts. Have you been in a single mine in the Superstitions, like what you have described?
Have you seen a single piece of gold laced ore, in place? Have you recovered a single piece of gold, nugget or flake from your placer location? After all of these years, where are the pictures of this "evidence"?

From what you have said, including that you will take some people out of the Rendezvous and show them your "evidence", it does not seem like it will be a long hike into the location you have in mind. In and out in a day. That includes climbing into some of the roughest terrain in the Superstitions, according to you, and very dangerous.

I really hope you show up and do that very thing. No one will laugh harder at themselves than I will. I can't imagine anyone really expects to see you at the Rendezvous, but I have been wrong many times in my life. Come into camp and I will shake your hand and say I was wrong.

Looking forward to seeing you at the Rendezvous.

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote

i have been working with the code on the Tayopa letter..it is not the same code as the stones ...very close ..
i now have a list of the mines at this location..

the EL Paramo placer (waltz's placer )
the Jesus Maria y jose mine (Ma Mine )
the TAYOPA mine (PA Mine)
the Remedios (Rio or Hoya)

And more, but this is mainly what I am going to refer to.

You say there is a code in the Tayopa inventory document? That Waltz had a placer mine, which is one and the same with the Paramo placer? There are three mines? I thought there were eight, or nine, or 18? The list of names posted by Don Jose are the names of the individual mines of Tayopa; the story of Tayopa has it that it was originally discovered in 1602 or 1603; so are you taking the position that there were Spanish and Jesuits in the Superstition mountains in 1603? There are many problems with this theory as we have tried to cover before. How could the bells of Tayopa be heard in a village that was only a few miles away, when we know that village location and it is far to the south in Sonora? Then there is the Mesa of the Bell Maker. What mesa are you saying is that mesa? Where was the Real, and the mission church? It is going to be a tough sell to convince some of us that Tayopa is in the Superstitions, much less that it has anything to do with Jacob Waltz.

I know, you have tried to explain this before but I just can't see the connections to make this a believable case.

Just a side note here but the Paramo placer is supposed to be in an adjoining valley to Tayopa. How does that fit with your location? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

Roy ask

"You say there is a code in the Tayopa inventory document?"

yes, i have no doubt what so ever the tayopa inventory letter is in fact coded ...

Roy said

" That Waltz had a placer mine, which is one and the same with the Paramo placer?"

Waltz did in fact locate the EL paramo placer ...not the Paramo place . i beleive that placer is at the other Tayopa sites be those at RT sites i do not know at this point . i have never been to his sites ...

waltz will read . " where it drops out into the bottom of the wash " that means it is very likely a placer ...and the fact the vein was and is a deposite cluster tells me the reason for the 22 k assay of the EL Paramo Placer ..

Roy Said

"There are three mines ?"

well you would have to reword that question ..

there are 3 main mines . the Jesus Maria y Jose mine , the TAYOPA and the Redemios , and the EL Paramo Placer , 3 richest mines , they dug in 18 locations , from what i under stand so far ..

not to be confused with the Paramo or the Tayopa ,,

i beleive these are the 3 richest mines as the 5th bell stated ... thats why it dose not show up in the inventory list ...even when we see a mine like the Cristo, knowing Pedro de Peralta was part of the time line of its discovery

". New Mexico's third Spanish governor, Don Pedro de Peralta, however, founded a new city at the foot of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains in 1608, which he called La Villa Real de la Santa Fé de San Francisco de Asís, the Royal Town of the Holy Faith of Saint Francis of Assisi. In 1610, he made it the capital of the province, which it has almost constantly remained,"

if the bells were cast in 1603 and the letter's inventory came from that date of 1603 then the date of 1608 here in the Pedro de Peralta time lines dose in fact fit the stones and the letters may have been writtern in 1643-1645 and were not sealed till 1646.. but that dose not mean the inventory was not done in 1603 ..when the bells were cast , note the inventory list the Cristo, a place that will not be fully named for another 5 years ...in 1608 the mts may have been known but was the there a Cristo mine at that time .. most likely yes ...so my time line is correct ..

and Pedro DE Peralta was in this area and did play a roll in the founding of those mts ...and most likely the mining that was going on at the time in that area ...

Roy said

"the story of Tayopa has it that it was originally discovered in 1602 or 1603; so are you taking the position that there were Spanish and Jesuits in the Superstition mountains in 1603? "

there were Peralta in the mts in 1603 even before 1603 maybe as early as 1585....
but the jesuits try to lay claim to the mines by renameing them . but as i pointed out the plot goes south and the mines are lost some time after 1646 ...
we know there is something wrong here but we do not know how those peices fit together yet . we know the jesuit do not know about the 5th bell ...so someone is lieing or someone knows the truth and dose not want anyone else to know what that truth is ...i dont think the jesuits forgot about makeing a 5 th bell .. they did not know about it because they did not know the histroy of the bells and who did cast them ..

my point is the jesuits say a lot in this letter . and about half of it is not true IMHO

why code it if they were not hiddeing something ..? un less i see a bell casted with a date on it . i have to go with what i know so far . these mines belong to Pedro De Peralta in 1603-1609. beyond that we can only hope more evidence is collected and defines the truth as the evidence come forth ...to prove or disprove these theories . but we do have evidence that says this theory is true ..

i will explain at the Rendezous in detail ...

if you can tell me wish of the Tayopa sites is closest then i could tell you wis one was hurd ...lol see my point what is true and what is toal BS we dont know but i dont think i would hunt for barking dogs to prove a navigational location ...lol anyone can say they hurd a barking goat . but where is the collective evidence to prove it ... i dont see it in those cases ..

i think if the jesuits are in these mts in those years no one knew about and they were not going to tell anyone .. the two Tayopa sites were a way to confuse and misled people away from the truth ...and the jesuits were very good at it ..

Roy said
"It is going to be a tough sell to convince some of us that Tayopa is in the Superstitions,"

i disgree completely . the statue was there in 1959..i know where the tunnle is ,, i dont think it will be hard to prove it at all .. one statue is worth a lot more then a picture is ...lol


Roy said

"convince some of us that Tayopa is in the Superstitions, much less that it has anything to do with Jacob Waltz. "

waltz Will says it all . you only need remember how much data has past by and how much is truth and how much is not known or is guess work ..

i beleive these are the lost Peralta mines . even if the jesuits tried to steal them by renameing them .. they are still the lost Peralta mine , and waltz will says he killed them and took this mine from them .. whats that tell you .. you can call it the LDM .. i dont . its the Ma mine for no better name for it at this point it can be called jose mine or jesus maria mine you can call it the chicken soap mine if you like . it wont change the facts ..

if you do not have the sorce you will not be able to tell the two Tayopa's apart , thats why they did it that way . the paramo is in mexico ...

 

[Blindbowman]

bb,

"i know its hard to beleive .. but i have peice together enough evidence to prove it is there and it is real ..."

All right, let's say that you are telling us facts. Have you been in a single mine in the Superstitions, like what you have described?
Have you seen a single piece of gold laced ore, in place? Have you recovered a single piece of gold, nugget or flake from your placer location? After all of these years, where are the pictures of this "evidence"?

From what you have said, including that you will take some people out of the Rendezvous and show them your "evidence", it does not seem like it will be a long hike into the location you have in mind. In and out in a day. That includes climbing into some of the roughest terrain in the Superstitions, according to you, and very dangerous.

I really hope you show up and do that very thing. No one will laugh harder at themselves than I will. I can't imagine anyone really expects to see you at the Rendezvous, but I have been wrong many times in my life. Come into camp and I will shake your hand and say I was wrong.

Looking forward to seeing you at the Rendezvous.

Joe

i know i have protected my research . but thats what make it fun ..

i have no doubt what so ever you will ROFL when you see where the mine really is , it will take a full day to get in there and out but . if you can hike you will want to see this ...

i look for to see you to joe .. you never know someone tell they want you to ..

i have no will to waste another trip to the mts .. this is "all in "

hidden codes and translations and lost evidence makes up 2/3 of this case , but the mines are there . they are just very hard to locate and in those mts . if your 10ft off you could be a life time away ...joe i am as inrested as you are . i will climb in this mine and if it is the LDM we will know right then ..and i may walk away with a pack of samples .. but i dont think there will be any questiobn what so ever that this mine is very very well hidden and is the mine waltz took from the Peralta ....

i hike 15 miles in one day , and took some brakes along the way ..those trails help a lot .but going off trail will tell you if its time to watch and not hike as much ...

joe wait till i explain and then if you want you are more then willing to hike in with me ...you will be surprized .. i am going to do just what i said i will .. i am going to collect samples from this mine .. and point out the other mines and placer ,, these mines will never be lost again .. its not about wealth .. its about discovery and solveing a long over dew legend ...with some friends

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

the EL Paramo placer (waltz's placer


When did Waltz have a placer? While there are stories of Waltz getting a drywasher made, using it to following up the ravines, etc., the LDM is, and always has been, considered a LODE, not a placer.


Beth


i would hate to take all the fun out of it ....lol[/quotes]



Are we having fun yet?


Beth

 

[Blindbowman]

the EL Paramo placer (waltz's placer


When did Waltz have a placer? While there are stories of Waltz getting a drywasher made, using it to following up the ravines, etc., the LDM is, and always has been, considered a LODE, not a placer.


Beth


i would hate to take all the fun out of it ....lol[/quotes]



Are we having fun yet?


Beth

fun comes at a cost

if that last hike into the mine is something unseen and unknowingly a surprize then no we are not haveing fun yet .. but the main thing here is the yet part .. it tells us yes the prize has been wraped and is under the tree...


we need to step back and ask our self . did this crazy bowman real find the Lost Dutchman mine ..?

my reply is , if it took someone like the blindbowman to find it what was everyone elses odd of finding it .. you had eyes and hears and your sense within ..its sad few know how to take them for a spin ..around the mts and down threw the canyons hidden threw the years lost around the bend ...

what did take a unexplained sighting and code waiting to be tasted ...a page a map . a munch old crap...lol

yes the game is alife if you are willing to see come one come all step up and hike in with me ...

jump not to the sound of the bands mighty tune .. march along with that old crazy loon...

laugh a load and cry if must .. his spirit will never rust ..

 

[Blindbowman]

i see something out there few will ever see, not because they are bind ,but because that was me once apone a time ...

"the world is not truely round untill you can see both sides ?"

 

[BILL96]

and the dish ran away with the spoon, bla ba bla ba bla ba bla

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe i get the idea you dint under stand whats happening yet ..

if the statue was in the tunnel in 1959 , and i saw the hiya in 1979 .. and located the placer and the mine in 2006 .. what do you think i am looking for this time ...? ask your self whats left .

What are you referring to as the "1959 sighting?"

in 1959 a man was found with a broken leg near crystall springs . he had fallen in a whole and awoke to see a life size gold statue made of plate gold filled with gold dust , he climbed out of the whole and was found by two men . he latter died in the hospital...

i know where the tunnle is ...he was not just dreaming that sighting .. i beleive every word this man said and i can prove he was logically telling the truth ... i Beleive 100% he fell in the TAYOPA tunnle and the statue he saw was in fact the custody listed in the inventory list ...

i know its hard to beleive .. but i have peice together enough evidence to prove it is there and it is real ...

Thanks for the clarification - I had heard that story but didn't realize that's the one you were referring to.

 

[Cubfan64]

bb,

"i know its hard to beleive .. but i have peice together enough evidence to prove it is there and it is real ..."

All right, let's say that you are telling us facts. Have you been in a single mine in the Superstitions, like what you have described?
Have you seen a single piece of gold laced ore, in place? Have you recovered a single piece of gold, nugget or flake from your placer location? After all of these years, where are the pictures of this "evidence"?

From what you have said, including that you will take some people out of the Rendezvous and show them your "evidence", it does not seem like it will be a long hike into the location you have in mind. In and out in a day. That includes climbing into some of the roughest terrain in the Superstitions, according to you, and very dangerous.

I really hope you show up and do that very thing. No one will laugh harder at themselves than I will. I can't imagine anyone really expects to see you at the Rendezvous, but I have been wrong many times in my life. Come into camp and I will shake your hand and say I was wrong.

Looking forward to seeing you at the Rendezvous.

Joe

Joe - I don't recall where the photo is anymore or even if it exists or has been deleted, but BB posted a closeup photo of a piece of what he defined as some kind of sulfur containing rock with what he claimed was a thin vein of wire gold running through it. Without an analysis of what he said was gold, there's no way of knowing what if anything it was, and there was nothing to indicate whether the stone in question was the size of a pea or the size of a basketball.

It wasn't terribly convincing of anything to be honest.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Just 'a' listening. Here are a few pictures to help you follow along in the conversation.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

But RDT... that doesn't look anything like the Superstitions!!?? Are you sure you have the right Tayopa?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning cubfan, mi compadre Y buddy: You are confusing me, he he , Maybe I need more coffee??

Join me??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman has been trying to build a case that ties several treasure legends in with the Lost Dutchman for five years now, can't say I am convinced so far. Just proving that one has found the Lost Dutchman gold mine alone would seem to be quite a hurdle (one does have to find it first) but to then make the leap to say it is Tayopa just baffles me. Why does it have to be Tayopa as well as the Lost Dutchman and lost Peralta mines as well? The Peraltas referred to were active in New Mexico, not AZ; the Peraltas active in AZ were working in the Black Canyon and Bradshaws area not the Superstitions. I can't seem to connect the dots so comfortably as some can.

It has been interesting at times but I would be impressed with one aspect being proven, let alone the theory that it is also the Tayopa complex, Peralta mines, Jesuits etc. Others have taken that "all rolled into one" approach before, and to be sure there are interesting parallels but the southwest is a far more complicated place with many lost mines and treasures, which are not related. One would almost have to think that all of the legends are really located in the Superstitions, with nothing anywhere else. If BB is saying that his Tayopa is a second one, it will still take a lot of evidence to prove it up.

Not to say that it is not possible that several different legends can not be directly associated with the Lost Dutchman - I suspect that the lost Doc Thorne mine is quite possibly the same, as is the lost Black Maverick mine. That one in particular had a detail which resonated, about the foot of the bull (or horse, depending on which version) went through a covering on top of the mine shaft; the covering was made up of logs, covered with earth and rocks etc very similar to what is commonly attributed to the Waltz story. Yet Blindbowman does not seem to address this possibility, or Dr Thorne. Just my opinion but I would think these two legends would be a much easier case to build than trying to link Tayopa with the LDM.

Looking forward to seeing you all,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

He seems to have gleaned his information, mostly, from writers of fiction and some of the more imaginative posters on the LDM Forums. Reality will only set in, if ever, after he makes that hike to his area of interest.
Right now his "facts" are pure speculation, as far as I can see.

After all these years of changing stories and fictional facts, I doubt he has convinced a single person here that it would be worthwhile to follow him into the mountains.

We are all treasure hunters on this site so, by definition, we all want to believe. If you can't convince us, you are rowing your boat in a parking lot......not much hope of getting anywhere. When you consider that Waltz worked the mine alone, how can you now say that you need thousands of dollars worth of equipment just to see what's in the mine?

It's a very hard sell.

Take care,

Joe