Season 5

[gazzahk]

I think they have pretty much now answered the question of the original depression on the surface and the water at 100ft. All these massive underground cavities do support the 'sink hole' theory of the original pit. If something like an earth tremor caused the top of one of these cavities to collapse and some soil liquidifcation occurred it would be easy to see heaps of soil falling into the cavity and leaving a depression on the surface. This would also explain the water at 100 foot as the water would rush in to fill where the dirt had been (with the cavities connected to the ocean).

This latest cavity they have found they said was at least 30ft high (Who would tunnel a spiral stair case with a 30ft high roof...)It does appear that it is difficult to drill anywhere in the PIT area below about 170ft and not hit a cavity.

It is possible that the original three who found evidence of a block and tackle were just finding a previous person treasure searching efforts who had noticed the depression in the ground I would think....

It also explains how Dan was able to use dowsing to find his cavity. He really just needed to dig almost anywhere and he would of found a cavity...

 

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[Dave Rishar]

In my opinion it does. Although I shouldn't say Europeans, I should have written "somebody from the Mediterranean area". And the reason I believe this, is because that would have been the only source within reason during that time period.

Why does it have to be somebody from the Mediterranean area? And why does it have to be during that time period?

When you find a coin in your pocket from 1960, does it mean that that coin was put there in 1960?

Again, nobody would carry centuries old rotten coconut fibre across an ocean.

Probably not. Of course, many of the theories kicked around this board are "probably not" correct, and not all of those involve Templars. But here we are.

Because of the dating there is no other reasonable possibility!

Incorrect. Did we ever establish the ancestry of the coconuts?

 

[lokiblossom]

Why does it have to be somebody from the Mediterranean area? And why does it have to be during that time period?

When you find a coin in your pocket from 1960, does it mean that that coin was put there in 1960?



Probably not. Of course, many of the theories kicked around this board are "probably not" correct, and not all of those involve Templars. But here we are.



Incorrect. Did we ever establish the ancestry of the coconuts?
View attachment 1521409

Yes, we did establish the ancestry of the coconut! I have posted several articles by experts on the subject and I believe your provided map is fairly accurate in this regard, also according to the publications I have read on the subject, there was no cross Panama connection.

The map also explains why it would have to be somebody from the Mediterranean area. Coconut fibres were widely used by Arabs in the Middle East as imported from India during and well before the required time period. I think you would agree that direct shipping from the Indian Ocean or Western Pacific to the Atlantic Basin is out of the question.

And your "probably not" should be a "certainly not" in my opinion. Or answer the question, why would anybody carry century or centuries old rotten coconut fibre in their holds?

So, yes correct. "Because of the dating, there is no other 'reasonable possibility'!

Remember, I'm not arguing on who it was, only that somebody who had visited a specific area during a specified time period (several centuries long btw) brought it to Nova Scotia (Acadia).

Cheers, Loki

 

[n2mini]

Glad to see Ricky make a showing. I've been wondering/asking if he was still alive and that he might have some good info as he actually lived on the island. Granted he was young to start with but they were there for 5-6 years. The sister that keeps showing up never lived on the island. She was married and lived elsewhere. So her info is all 2nd hand from her mom mainly after the fact...( she did make visits to the island over the years to see her parents ) She does have the families journals and maps etc though...

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Did we ever establish the ancestry of the coconuts?

And if you look at the vagaries of carbon-14 dating of contaminated material near or in seawater (with dissolved ions aplenty) there are plenty of questions on the dating.

If I recall correctly that material was "presented" for testing rather than a technician visiting the site to collect multiple samples from various positions in the matting. I doubt the "hain of evidence" would hold up in court.

 

[skybolt]

As others have mentioned before, is C-14 dating that accurate for locations such as Smith's Cove, where the area has been disturbed several times over the past 200-300 years and is consistently located under water? For instance, the Laginas stated that the coconut fiber was dated between the 1300 and 1400's. I noticed that other testing from 50-years ago came back with an 1100-1200 dating. It would be interesting to test some of the coconut fiber in less disturbed areas to see what the dating comes back as. Also, whenever the team talks about C-14 dating they always seem to mention the earlier dates instead of the median average, so I'm never sure if the item found is from the mid 1700's or more likely a 100 years later.

 

[lokiblossom]

And if you look at the vagaries of carbon-14 dating of contaminated material near or in seawater (with dissolved ions aplenty) there are plenty of questions on the dating.

If I recall correctly that material was "presented" for testing rather than a technician visiting the site to collect multiple samples from various positions in the matting. I doubt the "hain of evidence" would hold up in court.

There were three different times the C-14 dating was done, the most recent by the Lagina's. I think seawater contamination is only significant on samples that either were alive in seawater for an extended period or were from a great depth. Sure C-14 isn't perfect, if it was the dating could tell us the exact year rather than a general period. None of the datings seem to extend into the period of known European exploration or after coconuts were introduced to the Atlantic Basin by the Portuguese.
Cheers, Loki

 

[Robot]

Bang!...Bang!...They Are Getting Closer!




https://www.monstersandcritics.com/smallscreen/the-curse-of-oak-island-season-5-episode-4/

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Ok - so what is the baseline impact on C-14 isotopes of allegedly leaching seawater through finger drains full of "coconut fiber" for centuries? And is this the fiber from the palm leaves? Nut husks.

If the leaves, how did the material that was "too degraded" in 2002 for Woods Hole to identify become a definitive for Skip & Marty? Native palm trees exist in Bermuda, Florida and other places of the Eastern Atlantic shores.

The Biological Museum of Harvard identified the sample sent to them in 1937 from the "finger drain" as likely manila hemp fibers And this would have been in a better preserved and less disturbed state.

http://www.oakislandtreasure.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/img072.pdf

If it was "packing material" - what was packed in it that could have contaminated it?

This is why it needs a scientific on-site collection of multiple samples under controlled conditions by an independent test group (not the potential "beneficiary" taking a sample to the test lab under their employ). Would any court of law accept evidence handed to the judge by the defendant during the trial? Or to show up for a drug screening having brought in your urine sample transported in a cup from home.

 

[lokiblossom]

Ok - so what is the baseline impact on C-14 isotopes of allegedly leaching seawater through finger drains full of "coconut fiber" for centuries? And is this the fiber from the palm leaves? Nut husks.

If the leaves, how did the material that was "too degraded" in 2002 for Woods Hole to identify become a definitive for Skip & Marty? Native palm trees exist in Bermuda, Florida and other places of the Eastern Atlantic shores.

The Biological Museum of Harvard identified the sample sent to them in 1937 from the "finger drain" as likely manila hemp fibers And this would have been in a better preserved and less disturbed state.

http://www.oakislandtreasure.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/img072.pdf

If it was "packing material" - what was packed in it that could have contaminated it?

This is why it needs a scientific on-site collection of multiple samples under controlled conditions by an independent test group (not the potential "beneficiary" taking a sample to the test lab under their employ). Would any court of law accept evidence handed to the judge by the defendant during the trial? Or to show up for a drug screening having brought in your urine sample transported in a cup from home.

There have been many samples tested over the years with different results which should lead one to believe that they were testing different materials. The Lagina's test by an expert with an ESM and subsequent C-14 dating IMHO has to be taken at face value. I don't know about finger drains, I never bought into that idea. And you are talking about a criminal court, a court that couldn't convict O.J., but a civil court did find him guilty.

I do agree with your last paragraph, certainly a test should be conducted by an independent group. I was once offered a sample by the curator of the Oak Island Museum to have tested but didn't do so, as far as I know it is still available.

But remember, at the moment I am only saying there is a mystery!

Cheers, Loki

 

[skybolt]

Ok - so what is the baseline impact on C-14 isotopes of allegedly leaching seawater through finger drains full of "coconut fiber" for centuries? And is this the fiber from the palm leaves? Nut husks.

If the leaves, how did the material that was "too degraded" in 2002 for Woods Hole to identify become a definitive for Skip & Marty? Native palm trees exist in Bermuda, Florida and other places of the Eastern Atlantic shores.

The Biological Museum of Harvard identified the sample sent to them in 1937 from the "finger drain" as likely manila hemp fibers And this would have been in a better preserved and less disturbed state.

http://www.oakislandtreasure.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/img072.pdf

If it was "packing material" - what was packed in it that could have contaminated it?

This is why it needs a scientific on-site collection of multiple samples under controlled conditions by an independent test group (not the potential "beneficiary" taking a sample to the test lab under their employ). Would any court of law accept evidence handed to the judge by the defendant during the trial? Or to show up for a drug screening having brought in your urine sample transported in a cup from home.

Reminds me a little of the C-14 dating performed for the supposed Bosnian Pyramids, where samples were hand picked for analyses.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Yes, we did establish the ancestry of the coconut!

Did we? I may have missed that. I was under the impression that we weren't even 100% sure that we were dealing with coconut fibers. So we know for a fact that these are Indian, and not Pacific, coconuts? DNA testing and all of that?

I have posted several articles by experts on the subject and I believe your provided map is fairly accurate in this regard, also according to the publications I have read on the subject, there was no cross Panama connection.

If these were indeed Indian and not Pacific coconuts, yes.

I think you would agree that direct shipping from the Indian Ocean or Western Pacific to the Atlantic Basin is out of the question.

If the fibers are from Indian coconuts, yes.

Or answer the question, why would anybody carry century or centuries old rotten coconut fibre in their holds?

I don't have a good answer for that. It's not immediately logical, just as the idea of Templars (or rather, people who came after the Templars) chose to take a rather large gamble with something of supposedly great worth when there were nearer alternatives that were safer and just as secure.

So, yes correct. "Because of the dating, there is no other 'reasonable possibility'!

I'd argue that there's no reasonable explanation for Indian coconut fibers being in Canada at all.

 

[gazzahk]

https://www.monstersandcritics.com/smallscreen/the-curse-of-oak-island-season-5-episode-4/

Thanks for the share robot

The close up pics are interesting. Another map... With X marks the spot. It does look old.



I Hope it does show the original hole... The whole exercise will be wasted if they do not find and drill in what was meant to be the original pit.

It is quite amazing that none of the earlier searchers marked a map... Still I suppose treasure seekers are a suspicious lot and not prone to share their maps....

 

[lokiblossom]

Did we? I may have missed that. I was under the impression that we weren't even 100% sure that we were dealing with coconut fibers. So we know for a fact that these are Indian, and not Pacific, coconuts? DNA testing and all of that?



If these were indeed Indian and not Pacific coconuts, yes.



If the fibers are from Indian coconuts, yes.



I don't have a good answer for that. It's not immediately logical, just as the idea of Templars (or rather, people who came after the Templars) chose to take a rather large gamble with something of supposedly great worth when there were nearer alternatives that were safer and just as secure.



I'd argue that there's no reasonable explanation for Indian coconut fibers being in Canada at all.

I had assumed you meant coconuts in general, for Indian or Pacific, as I wrote, I believe your map is accurate. And as I also mentioned (according to the studys I posted earlier) there was no cross Panama connection of either, but I specifically meant Pacific.

No, the fibres have never (as far as I know) undergone a dna study. That is one of the tests I had been calling for on the old Oak Island Forum.

It was India that traded "Coir" with countries in the Eastern Mediterranean, which is why I wrote that it would be the only reasonable source within the correct time period, and certainly the only reasonable source of coconut fibres dated Pre-European Exploration in Eastern Canada.

What makes you think that there could have been direct shipping of "Pacific" coconut fibre to Nova Scotia during the same time period?

What would be a nearer, safer and more secure alternative than coconut fibre (Coir) for ropes and or packing if you happened to be based in the eastern Mediterranean before the 15th Century?

The point is in answering an earlier poster, there is indeed a mystery connected with Oak Island. How did coconut fibres get to the Island before the period of European Exploration, when there was no natural possiblity?

Cheers, Loki

 

[Customx_12]

I haven't been keeping up with the show after the first episode this season. Have they found priceless holy relics the likes the world has never seen yet?

 

[gazzahk]

I haven't been keeping up with the show after the first episode this season. Have they found priceless holy relics the likes the world has never seen yet?

Yep....



and you should see the WOOD Fragments they are finding .......

 

[MikeN]

Yep....

View attachment 1522008

and you should see the WOOD Fragments they are finding

In the next week's preview show, they find something like very dense wood, but not rock. Teakwood? Ebony? Super dense wood from an alien civilization?

 

[Singlestack Wonder]

Regardless of where the coconut fibers came from, is it possible that they were the predecessors to modern packaging materiel such as bubble wrap and were used to line crates and the bottom of ships to protects bottles, pots, etc. from breaking in rough waters? Perhaps once the ships reached their destinations they then dumped the coconut fibers to lessen the weight for the return trip, thus the accumulation in Smith's cove...

Looks like Loki beat me to the punch above...."What would be a nearer, safer and more secure alternative than coconut fibre (Coir) for ropes and or packing if you happened to be based in the eastern Mediterranean before the 15th Century? "......

 

[Dave Rishar]

I had assumed you meant coconuts in general, for Indian or Pacific, as I wrote, I believe your map is accurate. And as I also mentioned (according to the studys I posted earlier) there was no cross Panama connection of either, but I specifically meant Pacific.

The map wasn't just to show where the coconuts traveled, but when.

No, the fibres have never (as far as I know) undergone a dna study. That is one of the tests I had been calling for on the old Oak Island Forum.

Given that the Pacific coconut strain was in the Americas before Columbus, I would think that knowing what kind of coconuts that we're dealing with is pretty important. I would certainly want to establish that before stating an origin for the Nova Scotia fibers as fact.

It was India that traded "Coir" with countries in the Eastern Mediterranean, which is why I wrote that it would be the only reasonable source within the correct time period, and certainly the only reasonable source of coconut fibres dated Pre-European Exploration in Eastern Canada.

Incorrect.

What makes you think that there could have been direct shipping of "Pacific" coconut fibre to Nova Scotia during the same time period?

I don't think that fibers were shipped from the Pacific to Nova Scotia. I'm saying that they may have been shipped from central or south America to Nova Scotia. A DNA test would pretty much settle the matter.

What would be a nearer, safer and more secure alternative than coconut fibre (Coir) for ropes and or packing if you happened to be based in the eastern Mediterranean before the 15th Century?

See above. You are fixated on fiber coming from the Middle East due to confirmation bias. What I'm saying is that depending on the coconut, it may not have come from there. I don't remember seeing anyone discussing this on this forum before. Why am I the first (possibly) one to bring it up? And if it was brought up before, why is it not being discussed?

The point is in answering an earlier poster, there is indeed a mystery connected with Oak Island. How did coconut fibres get to the Island before the period of European Exploration, when there was no natural possiblity?

For all the people that are convinced of where those fibers came from, it's merely speculation without a DNA test. Discussing possibilities based on speculation is...well, a bit premature.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Regardless of where the coconut fibers came from...

Their origins are important. If that is established, certain theories become impossible, while others become much more likely. Imagine the improvement to this forum's signal to noise ratio!