Solved? more input needed on old no-name pistol

[dozer dan]

here are the pictures of my pistol. the only pictures i could find to match it is the griswold and gunnison. my pistol is .36 cal. brass frame with a round barrel. there is no name on it. the ser. # is in the 17,000s and stamped two times on the brass, one time on the cylinder, and one time under the barrel assembly. all ser. #s match. the ser #s are erratic as they are not aligned well. the rod is 2 piece construction, in the pictures you can see this. there also appeares to be a blood etched finger print on the underside of the barrel. one person i asked to examin it said he thought he saw a tiny stamping on the cylinder of a crescent moon with a star in it. i however do not see this.
i am grateful for your interest and any info you could provide. sorry about the pic's. im still catchin on. Dan

 

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[bullitt4248]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

I would agree with the posted that stated to have the metals tested. A metallurgist could help narrow the field a bit. Local steel manufactures , some colleges and fabrication shops would be a good start.

It does look like it has been filed on - now that I look closer. Could you post some side angle pics of that area? But even if it was filed - doesn't rule out being a repatriated pistol.

Personally at this point - I am leaning toward parts gun. Thats not to say thats a bad thing - as we know the military and soldiers alike would swap out parts any time it was feasible - some times right on the battle field.

Keep digging - as far as the barrel or it method of manufacture - that too could be answered by a metallurgist our a good machinist - guessing from pictures is a slippery slope.

Good Luck!

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

It does look like it has been filed on - now that I look closer. Could you post some side angle pics of that area? But even if it was filed - doesn't rule out being a repatriated pistol.

Thanks for responding bullitt. Yes I would also like to see a side pic or dozers opinion because pics can be deceiving. So far dozer has not responded to anything about the possible filed numbers. The filed numbers alone doesnt prove much. It only shows that the brass frame did not originally mate with the barrel. Someone filed the numbers in an attempt to match it with the barrel but they used a different #1 punch so their attempt to deceive failed miserably IMO and only makes the entire gun suspect...


...just imagine filing a date off a coin and then trying to prove it was valuable before it was filed.

 

[dozer dan]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Solved! Solved! Solved! Finally Solved!

I hope everyone that was involved in this post will either remember it or skim back through it to get reacquainted with all the wonderful ideas and input from members as to
"authentic or reproduction". At one point I mentioned all the years spent and experts that I had contacted trying to solve this mystery only to be told by half it was a repro and the other half said authentic. At another point, I thought about chucking it in the river to save my sanity. While on the computer this morning I figured "what the heck" lets give it try #2307.
10 minutes into the search I found an image that resembled it, clicked onto the auction website and there it was. It was probably there all the while but I just wasn't seeing it. If you look at the link and have any doubts, revisit the post and look at all familiarities and I think everyone will agree. Thanks bunches to everyone. Dan


http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Antique-Pistol-Hand-guns/-Colt-1851-Navy-Pattern-gun-for-sale-gs1608.aspx

Second hand Colt 1851 Navy Pattern .36" Pistol / Hand guns for sale on GunStar.

A Colt model 1851 Navy pattern .36-caliber percussion cap revolver by an unknown maker.

It has a brass frame and the serial number stamped 1247 (mine is 1257) on frame, chamber and barrel.

Good condition with a fair amount of use. (trade)


Gun Category:

Pistol / Hand guns



Model:

Colt 1851 Navy Pattern



Certificate required:

No Licence - Antique/Obsolete Calibre - Section 58 (2) Firearms Act 1968



Calibre:

.36"



Mechanism:

Revolver



Barrel length:

7.25"



Stock length:

3"



Overall length:

13.5"



Price:

£ 1,350.00 (GBP - £)



Year of manufacture:



c1863



Condition:

Used - Good condition for age

If everybody agrees that this is solved, tell me how and we'll put up the green check mark.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Very interesting and great work finding a possible match Dozer. Thats great that you havent given up hope. I have many questions; for starters, I am curious if the 1247 is also stamped on the Gunstar pistol with modern dies (no serifs)?

I would say you are getting closer to solving it but not there yet. We need more pics of the gun that was sold IMO and I hope others will post.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The seller claims it was made in 1863 but above that they say its an unknown maker. Im curious as to how they came up with the date of manufacture. Do you know?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

While your 1257 doesnt seem to have serifs, it doesnt exactly look modern either. Ill bet CannonBallGuy could help.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am not at all familiar with GunStar but it appears to be an eBay type of place in the UK to sell guns and accessories. So I would say no, we do not yet have a green check but we are getting closer. Do they really sell antique guns with one picture lol? I would sure like to see the other pics Dozer if you have them. It appears that you may have seen the ad before it was sold.

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Advertise-Gun-For-Sale.aspx

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Scam-Warning.aspx

 

[l.cutler]

It is similar, but definitely not the same. The shape behind the loading lever and the loading lever itself is very different. There is also the way too high 17,000 range serial number.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

My guess the 17,212 number, in modern fonts, was stamped on later. It appears to be stamped over a filed off number. Parts may also have been changed.

I think there may be a connection between this gun and the gun sold on GunStar but it doesnt yet solve anything IMO.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am going to be blunt here. You may be ignoring some of my questions and comments Dozer because you want it so bad to be an authentic piece. You really need to look with an open mind and answer questions and do it truthfully or we are all wasting our time. (edited: added the words may be and some)


I am not as knowlegable as l.cutler, but for what its worth I think the GunStar could be a match with some minor differences. The numbers are too close to ignore and, myself, I will not ignore any clue. What I would like to see is a better pic of your gun facing the same direction so we can compare..

GunStar appears to be an online place to sell guns. Apparently a seller can call it whatever he wants. Too bad we dont have more pics. It appears the sale is over or the item was pulled. It was being sold as a "percussion cap revolver by an unknown maker" so it doesnt help much with an ID.

I have also not given up entirely yet trying to help you. I took my .36 Navy replica all apart and measured the threads at Home Depot. My threads are Metric like yours. But my nipples are of some unknown thread that doesnt fit any standard size. I dont know if this helps any but I tried.

 

[dozer dan]

I am going to be blunt here. You have been ignoring my questions and comments for a long time now Dozer because you want it so bad to be an authentic piece. You really need to look with an open mind and answer questions and do it truthfully or we are all wasting our time.

I am not as knowlegable as l.cutler, but for what its worth I think the GunStar could be a match with some minor differences. The numbers are too close to ignore and, myself, I will not ignore any clue. What I would like to see is a better pic of your gun facing the same direction so we can compare..

GunStar appears to be an online place to sell guns. Apparently a seller can call it whatever he wants. Too bad we dont have more pics. It appears the sale is over or the item was pulled. It was being sold as a "percussion cap revolver by an unknown maker" so it doesnt help much with an ID.

I have also not given up entirely yet trying to help you. I took my .36 Navy replica all apart and measured the threads at Home Depot. My threads are Metric like yours. But my nipples are of some unknown thread that doesnt fit any standard size. I dont know if this helps any but I tried.

I just lucked out by finding that picture and clicked on the name which took me to the gunstar site. I have no idea when it sold, or how they dated it but would like to. As for your questions, if you look back I tried to take the screw to get it measured several times by people who tried to force it into a gauge to get a match. Here is your response to that.


Re: old no-name pistol


Reply To This Topic #117 Posted Mar 27, 2009, 09:48:53 AM



Quote



Quote from: dozer dan on Mar 27, 2009, 06:43:55 AM

ME;
yesterday, i took a screw to fastenall (they sell nuts,bolts, rivets, ect.........)

they held it up to a plastic comparison jig to match the threads. i think that's the word I'm looking for.

well anyway once again the results were mixed. they kinda leaned towards metric but not sure.


You;
I was afraid of that. Look inside the barrel and count the lands and grooves of the rifling.. There should be 6 lands and 6 grooves if its authentic Griswold. "The barrel has 6 lands and grooves, turning clockwise, and there is a considerable gain twist in the fore half of the barrel. The hammer has a roller, and the cylinder has 6 safety pins unlike the Colt that has only one."


with that many people forcing the threads its only a matter of time before something gets broken.

and here is a my reply posting #172 about the thread pitch.

about mid way through all of this, i posted that i took a couple of the screws to home depot, Lowe's

(where the clerk tried to force the screw into the nuts) and fastenall and

they did not fully match up with standard or metric screws and i received a lot of flack about "thats the only two types

Believe it or not, I value everyones opinion and I am willing to accept the "repro" answer, if it is prooven not just guessed. I also emailed Norm Flayderman yesterday to ask him to take a look at this post in the hopes that he could shed some light. You have to understand, of 20 civil war weapons experts, authors and auction houses I ask maybe 1 will respond. I totally understand that. They are important people whos time is valuable. I really thought that pic and 1247 was the missing link.

Here's the two side by side.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I agree forget about the threads. You should never force a thread. Thats old news.


Are the serial numbers filed off?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I really thought that pic and 1247 was the missing link.

Here's the two side by side.

Thanks for the side by side pics. I see some minor differences in the ejector screw and the sight bead but that is not the issue. The problem is GunStar.

GunStar is like eBay. It doesnt prove anything. The pic is also poor quality. The listing says its an unknown maker. Do you understand?


Maybe someone could write to GunStar and try to get more information or more pics. I believe there is a connection between this gun and yours because of the frame number.

 

[dozer dan]

The serial numbers are intact but conflicting.
On the inside its stamped with 1257 in several places and penciled on the grips.

On the outside it is stamped 17212 in many places

 

[dozer dan]

I really thought that pic and 1247 was the missing link.

Here's the two side by side.

Thanks for the side by side pics. I see some minor differences in the ejector screw and the sight bead but that is not the issue. The problem is GunStar.

GunStar is like eBay. It doesnt prove anything. The pic is also poor quality. The listing says its an unknown maker. Do you understand?


Maybe someone could write to GunStar and try to get more information or more pics. I believe there is a connection between this gun and yours because of the frame number.

The front sight bead on mine was missing when I got it.

I dont know if "gunstar" will be willing to give out any info on the buyer or seller but you can bet I'm going to try. This is the closest I've ever been to an answer (good or bad) and I'll stay on top of it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

This is the closest I've ever been to an answer ...

I agree

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The serial numbers are intact but conflicting.
On the inside its stamped with 1257 in several places and penciled on the grips.

On the outside it is stamped 17212 in many places

Is the bottom number filed off?


(Notice the different dies number 1).

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The serial numbers are intact but conflicting.

Do you understand the question? I am referring to the file marks underneath the "intact" number 17212 hand stamped in the brass.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just lucked out by finding that picture and clicked on the name which took me to the gunstar site. I have no idea when it sold, or how they dated it but would like to. As for your questions, if you look back I tried to take the screw to get it measured several times by people who tried to force it into a gauge to get a match. Here is your response to that.

Im sorry dozer. My GunStar pic says SOLD so I thought maybe you had seen the listing before it was actually sold. I see now that the "SOLD" goes away when you copy and pasted it.



I guess the only old question unanswered is the file marks. Ill give you more time to respond.

Someone may have filed off 1257 But whomever filed the brass and re-stamped it was not the same person that stamped the steel with modern dies.. The 1 and maybe the 7 appear to be European fonts.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I keep coming back here Dan because its interesting.


I have a few observations from my Italian replica. My frame is brass. It has the number 7136 stamped and also hand written inside the grip.
My hammer has the sight notch and safety pin notch same as yours, although it has no safety pins. It also has the roller, same as yours. It seems the replica hammers are made the same old way so there is no help there in your quest to authenticate.