The Peralta Stones

[bakergeol]

quote author=gollum link=topic=41448.msg294151#msg294151 date=1152861309]
On the Horse side of the stone, in the upper right hand corner is a map and clues. In this map, the word RIO is used. This may mean to cross a river, but what many people who see these stones don't realize, is that many times when the Spanish used the word RIO in a map or carving, the mean it as a water clue. I.E: reflection or mirror image. It may mean to read this inreverse.

On the Witch/Priest Side, is another short map. I believe this map was how to find the other stones. I think this, because if you look carefully, you will see the back side of the Heart Stone (rectangle w/cross inside).
[/quote]

I just tuned in here and as always love a good mystery.

What interests me is the weathering on the stones. It has been menitioned before that the maps are pristine looking which was suggested as evidence that the maps are not geniune. However, the Priest writing, the Don stone writings and the Cross stone writings have something in common. They all exhibit weathered surfaces which are different that the writings below. Notice that the interpreted map parts on these on the other side are almost pristine. Notice the extreme weathering for the word DON. One could argue that these stones were found with the Priest, Don and Cross writings up and exposed to the elements after many centuries. Possibly explain why the maps also look pristine.This would also lend support for the Priest side as a short map to the other stones( One would be looking for the Don and Cross stones which would be in the up position)

Well just shooting the breeze at a very boring day at work. If someone has already menitioned this well excuse me.
George

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: The Peralta Stones -drifting off topic...

Greetings BlackBeard,

BB wrote:
<snip>
only concentrate on generalized reports in Spanish history (DRSW) because as we all know the Aztec people were brutalized and trivialized by the Spanish with their culture, writing and way of life destroyed. So in other words they lied about everything pertaining to the Aztecs to pump up their own egos and status in eyes of the King. Cortez wanted to be named the new Governor or King or something of Mexico. He never was and died in
obscurity. At least that's the way I remember reading it I may be wrong correct me if I am Gollum.

Not to take Gollum's place here and your 'take' on this part of history is "correct" from a certain point of view. I would point out that it is possible to view this rather dark period of history in a different way.

The Aztecs were highly militaristic, having conquered all the neighboring tribes and held them in subjection/slavery conditions. The Aztec religion demanded vast numbers of human sacrifices, which the pious Aztecs went to great lengths to fulfill these demands. Spanish chroniclers recorded a mass sacrifice of some 20,000 non-Aztec captives over three days, a horrifically bloody act by itself, with the torn bodies of the victims tossed very un-ceremoniously down the steep stone steps of the pyramids to be eaten by the people! The Spaniards were horrified! We read in our history books how Cortez managed to conquer the Aztec empire with a mere "handful" of men when in truth the Spanish found that they had ready allies in the vassal states around the Aztecs, who provided the man power needed to overthrow the brutal Aztec regime. Here is an extract:

Yet this must not be understood too literally; for it would be unjust to the Aztecs themselves, at least to their military prowess, to regard the Conquest as directly achieved by the Spaniards alone. The Indian empire was in a manner conquered by Indians. The Aztec monarchy fell by the hands of its own subjects, under the direction of European sagacity and science.

So while the Spanish imposed an "evil" on the people of Mexico, they had overthrown an empire which was far more bloodthirsty and brutal, and brought many (arguably of course) "good" things to the people, such as the introduction of Christianity, the many European technological advances (gunpowder and guns, the wheel, horses, burros, cattle, sheep, etc) and yes they did bring the near-feudal system of Spain, but even this was certainly no worse than the former Aztec overlordship. The Spanish conquest imposed "peace" which ended the constant large-scale warfare that was continuous among the many city-states of Mexico and Central America, and while there were Indian wars on the frontier with Seris, Yaquis, Apaches even Comanches raiding south, this level of warfare was nothing like the massed armies that clashed prior to the arrival of the Spanish.

Cortez died a wealthy man, and left his many children and dependents well cared for in his will, even all of their mothers. He may have been in relative obscurity but had managed to get out of the massive debts he had incurred, and had earned a place in history which remains indelible. It is popular today to take a "bias" in favor of the Amerindians, as if the Americas were a sort of "Eden" or utopian society, however the truth is far darker and bloodier; it is popular today to denounce former "heroes" like Cortez, yet in their day they were doing battle with real "forces of darkness" and the end result is certainly better than what was before. Cortez may have exaggerated to some extent in his reports to the king, but in some areas the truth exceeded his exaggerations - the amounts of silver and gold that started to pour into the royal coffers (and Spain as well) grew to astonishing amounts! They did spread the word of Christianity, and worked to erase the former bloody religious practices prevalent throughout the area - in their zeal the missionaries did destroy the Aztec books (or codices, same thing) but in a way their efforts are understandable; they did not understand what was contained within the books and found the priest castes keeping the books so assumed they were books of their dark religion. Fortunately, thanks to the efforts of some of these same missionary priests, not ALL of the codices were destroyed and we are beginning to be able to read them.

Anyway friend BlackBeard, your view of that period of history is accepted by many people today, I only wished to point out that this view is a rather new development, formerly a different view held sway and if you think about it still makes sense on some levels. I was not trying to pre-empt anyone else on the subject just didn't see anyone present that side of the story.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

AW Heck Oro,

I can't stay mad at anybody (except my ex-wife)!

Oro's right BB. Don't you shed a single tear for the Aztecs! If you thought the Maya were bloodthirsty, the Aztecs had them beat by a mile!

While the Aztecs were fighting and killing everyone to the East, South, and West, they didn't have any big problems with Indians to the North. Most people who know the subject, believe that this is because the Aztecs came from the North to gey to Central Mexico. They were, at the very least, friendly with the Northern Tribes. They may also have been related to them. This is also the reason that most people believe Montezuma sent all the treasures to the North in 1521.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum, thanks and I never was mad at you - besides we have way too many common interests to let ONE major difference (politicks) break a friendship. Even there I think we agree on a bit more than we disagree.

Mike is right on the nail as to Aztecs having friendly trading relations with northern tribes (turquoise especially from the area was prized) and some have proposed that the mysterious Mound Builders of middle and eastern US are somehow related to Aztecs or Mayas. Some have also noted similarities between the Anasazi and Aztecs, including some cannibalism. I wonder if there is any Aztec connection to the Superstitions?

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Well, we KNOW that there are Aztec/Mayan connections as far North as Southern AZ.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes, I have heard of Aztec items (trade goods) found in SE Utah, plus anyone who is 'into' Indian arrow points knows that the trade in them was very extensive.
Oroblanco

 

[Zeitgeist_Xero]

Speaking of Aztecs and North American ties... its my simple hypothesis that the Aztecs might have some origination from the peoples of the Chaco Canyon area of New Mexico, and I have some evidence to site this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Canyon
"Between 850 BC and AD 1250, Chaco Canyon was a major center of ancestral Puebloan culture. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec
"Establishment 1248 --Dissolution 1521"
"According to the Aubin codex, the seven Nahua tribes lived in Aztlán under the rule of a powerful elite. The seven tribes fled Aztlán, to seek new lands. The Mexicas were the last group to leave, guided by their priest "Huitzil". The Aubin Codex relates that after leaving Aztlán, Huitzilopochtli ordered his people to never identify themselves as Azteca, the name of their former masters. Instead they should henceforth call themselves Mexìcâ.

The Spanish conquistadors referred to them as "Mexicas". In Mexico, archeologists and museums use the term Mexicas. The wider population in and outside Mexico generally speaks of Aztecs. In this article, the term "Mexica" is used to refer to the Mexica people up until the time of the formation of the Triple Alliance. After this, the term "Aztecs" is used to refer to the peoples who made up the Triple Alliance."
"The true origin of the Mexica is uncertain. According to their legends, the Mexica's place of origin was Aztlán. It is generally thought that Aztlán was somewhere to the north of the Valley of Mexico; some experts have placed it as far north as the Southwestern United States. Others however suggest it is a mythical place, since Aztlán can be translated as "the place of the origin". The mythical story of these travels is recorded in a number of codices from the Spanish colonial era, most prominently the Aubin Codex and the Boturini Codex."

I'm aware that the proposed languages of Chacoan culture differ from presumed Aztec peoples, but I can't help thinking that somehow the Chaco influences of celestial calendars, larger structures, roads, and city organizations show some similarities... of course its a naive hypothesis at best, but I submitted it as food for thought...

 

[bobinsd]

If the US gov't in the last 200 years somehow stumbled on to the location of the Aztec gold, do you think it would have been made public?

If so, Mexico and the rest of the world would have wanted the gold returned, so I'm sure it's in Ft. Knox, and any records long ago destroyed.

If I were the Aztecs, knowing that Cortez was coming back very soon, I think I would have dumped the treasure into the deepest part of a lake. The new Atec leaders may not have known just exactly where, and the Aztecs still did have allies in the south during this time, so it could have gone there.

In his letters back to Spain, there is no mention of a vast amount of gold to be had, so perhaps whatever was there was just split up by the C-dores. There was a much larger number by then.

Tourists??

JMHO.

bobinsd

 

[the blindbowman]

sorry it is not the four peaks area he was talking about , but when i ploted my location i had seen the LDM at , i found them ....easy to find ...did i forget to tell you all i have a 4 point fix on the LDM site ...! fact !

 

[gollum]

If the US gov't in the last 200 years somehow stumbled on to the location of the Aztec gold, do you think it would have been made public?

If so, Mexico and the rest of the world would have wanted the gold returned, so I'm sure it's in Ft. Knox, and any records long ago destroyed.

If I were the Aztecs, knowing that Cortez was coming back very soon, I think I would have dumped the treasure into the deepest part of a lake. The new Atec leaders may not have known just exactly where, and the Aztecs still did have allies in the south during this time, so it could have gone there.

In his letters back to Spain, there is no mention of a vast amount of gold to be had, so perhaps whatever was there was just split up by the C-dores. There was a much larger number by then.

Tourists??

JMHO.

bobinsd

Hey Bob,

No way! Read those letters of Cortez closely. You will see that when he first arrived at Tenochtitlan in 1519 (as a tourist), there was gold adorning both people and buildings. When he came back as a Conquistador in 1520-1, much of that gold was gone. He spent MANY weeks torturing the Aztecs trying to find where they hid the gold, and nobody talked. All they found out was that it went North. They had hostile neighbors West and South, and the Spaniards to the East. They were very friendly and traded with the Apache to the North (The Apache might have even been related to the Aztecs. Aztlan was, after all, to the North). How far North? Nobody knows, but they did have gold that the Spaniards didnt get, and to the best of my knowledge, it has not been recovered.

Maybe if the Aztec gold was what was in Victorio Peak, then the Government might have it. Other than that, I doubt it.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Peeps: A littl problem for you regarding the Jesuits etc. They liked their little games. What does this say or indicate?

Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

first you got to be able to see it ..lol something two location one lager than the other it dose in fact relate to the jesuits .. useing the Number * for the word infinity is almost as fun as useing vici and adding nity ....lol if you can get me a clear copy of it yes i can read it ...

 

[gollum]

Hey Jose,

I agree with BB on one thing, BETTER RESOLUTION!

Best,

Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

i hope you guys under stand , 7 years ago, i wrote the M&R logic code,( about parellic reflections in all matters and anti matters of creation ) .... its a formatt for the code of creation it self...in a simbolic binary logic code .....i am a crazy old fool ! LOL

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: Frankly, it is actually clear enough for the purpose. It is on one of my Jesuit maps. It is indicative of the little games they love to play. It is simply the initials of Two Jesuits and the Society of Jesus.

This was crudely made by a mirror image upside down. Always look for these little ticks.

Tropical Tramp

p.s. OOPS, the way it posted it is simply a mirror image sorry, even so----..

 

[gollum]

No, it shows mirrored and upside down. It just looks like many of the characters are too faded.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

?? clarify, my myopic friend.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

?? clarify, my myopic friend.

Tropical Tramp

Come on Jose,

That's the easy part:

Look at the pics below. The first is the code as you posted it;

Second is the code after being flipped horizontal.

Third is the code after being flipped vertical (so, what started out as the bottom line, ended up the top line and it's 022)!

Best Mike

 

[gollum]

That is, unless you think the top line should be 660 (which it could by being only vertically flipped and not horizontally).

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ya got it gollum. The first three lines are the initials of the three Jesuit padres that signed the document, The O J is "Orden de Jesuits".

Something this simple can throw one off if they simply accept it at face value or their favorite author has. I ran across this time and time again during the Tayopa search.

Tropical Tramp