The Peralta Stones

[Seventytwo]

The Don P map. It has been made up from the trail lines that start from the Don Peralta trail head. Then end in the Upper La barge Canyon. This map can be easily broken using most any topo maps of the Superstition Mountains. This is one of the only maps that can be used as an accurate trails map to the Lost Dutchman Mine. It is as simple as dissembling the lines in the picture and locating which section of the trail the lines over lay.
Treasure hunting 101

 

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[cactusjumper]

72,

Are you saying that the LDM is in Upper La Barge Canyon?

cj

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheehs Djui haven't you dug it up yet? What are you waitig for?

Tropical Tramp

 

[lgadbois]

There isn't much evidence linking the map stones with the Lost Duchman Mine. It is possible that they were engraved by the Peralta family. In the June and July 1976 Treasure Magazine, Tom Probert gave an excellent description of his opinion on the stones. I have studied his interpretation carefully, and his overall idea seems to fit. The map and the 18 places matches very well with the trail and missions starting at the Ures Mission and ending up north at Casa Grande. He identifies the locations with a map drawn by Padre Kino in 1695. I have many different maps of the area including one that was drawn just before 1767 when the Jesuits were arrested and removed from the missions. The locations on the newer more accurate maps seem to match the rock maps very well. I'm not sure that I buy the final destination as Casa Grande. If you look at the figure, it is not a witch. It is a priest standing on a base or pedestal. Why would the Peraltas put that on a map? The priest is waving a cross in the direction of the trail.

Some have said that the Jesuits found out about the arrests and moved their valuables to a hidden cache in or near the Superstitions. The so called mine may actually be a cache of church gold, silver, and other items from the missions. That would date the stone map to about 1747. This was also the time period when the Tumacacori Mine, which was located west of the mission at Camp Loco, was being operated.

 

[cactusjumper]

Igad,

"Some have said that the Jesuits found out about the arrests and moved their valuables to a hidden cache in or near the Superstitions."

It's a good story, but there is not a shred of historical evidence to back up any part of that sentence, other than "Some have said".

cj

 

[lgadbois]

Well CJ, why are you posting here? Theres not any historical evidence that the stones are genuine, or related to the Peralta family either! Did someone appoint you as history monitor? If you don't have anything constructive to contribute, keep your thoughts to yourself.

 

[cactusjumper]

Igad,

Sorry you took that as a personal attack. I post here for the same reason everyone else posts. Exchange of ideas. Probably a new concept for you, but don't give up on the idea too quickly.

It does not take much grey matter to figure that the "stones are genuine" as they are their own best (physical) evidence. That does not mean they are not a modern-day hoax, which is something I have always said was more than possible.

There is no evidence they are related to the Peraltas. Did I say they were? That would be a mistake on my part.

I said it was "a good story". Don't you think that's "constructive"? I said there wasn't "a shred of evidence". I believe that's "constructive". It opens your comments to debate, which most would consider "constructive".

On the other hand, your last post is designed to close any debate, and is a weak minded attempt to avoid coming up with facts or evidence to support your shoddy research.

No one has appointed me "history monitor", it just seems like a worthwhile endeavor to correct those who try to change history, especially when they don't really have a clue as to what is true, and what is fantasy.

Please feel free to attack any "facts" I might present, that you feel are in error. The intelligent and proper way to do that, is to attack the "evidence" someone presents, and not attack the presenter of those facts.

I believe we are all here to share our thoughts. If you should come up with one, I hope you will not be reluctant to let everyone know. There are people who try to restrict that freedom.....You're not one of those people, are you?

cj

 

[jeff of pa]

I believe we are all here to share our thoughts. If you should come up with one, I hope you will not be reluctant to let everyone know. There are people who try to restrict that freedom.....Your not one of those people, are you?

cj

cj ;

you have every right in the world to post here.

Please feel free to attack any "facts" I might present, that you feel are in error. The intelligent and proper way to do that, is to attack the "evidence" someone presents, and not attack the presenter of those facts.



cj

and this is Very well Put also.

I would actually Remove his attack on your right to be here,
but your Response is so very well written, I feel it should stay.

JEFF

P.S.

the Only response I expect to see on these comments is an
Apology to you.

 

[the blindbowman]

it takes the common sense to step back and take a good long look at whats going on . legend vs reality !

unless you can dirrectly relate any of the peralta stones to any given location (as i have ) they are as good as fakes , even if they are real.

i am working on my equipment for the next expedition. and with good out come so far . we are set up to take over 12,000 pictures in 10.2 megapixle on location from 10mm to 2600mm telephoto .with a full solar battery chargeing system on location .no more dead battery ...no more excuses...!

with a full laser guided infrared thermatic scan of the 5 sites in question , with a full GPS scaled reading of the locations of each of the 5 site in question ..and all of the readings will be mapped on a state of the art Laptop ..with softwear designed for this type of mapping and readings , with Full Gps and Range finders and a skilled navigationial team ,i will set out to relocate what i saw in 1979 ..

the frist two expedition layed the ground work for expedition #3.. we have an over all layout of the area and sites and we will find any evidence in the area and at those 5 sites ...

expedition #2 found evidence and recoverd a lot of data needed to define the over locations of the 5 sites ,,

if i did not beleave the peralta stones were real ,i would not spend the money & time to research them

good luck to all of you ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:<snip>...they are as good as fakes , even if they are real.


Finally something we can agree on! There are SO many "treasure maps" out there, with SO few being worth anything more than as curiosity/artwork, these stones are of highly questionable value - whether real or frauds.

Oroblanco

 

[lgadbois]

CJ,

You wrote, "Sorry you took that as a personal attack." Then you wrote, "a weak minded attempt to avoid coming up with facts or evidence to support your shoddy research." Do you think that I appreciate being called "weak minded" or "doing shoddy research"? They both sound like attacks to me. I see that you, in your rough shod way, have misaligned and made derogatory remarks about others on TreasureNet, and then apologized. It would be better for all if you be more careful about how you quote and criticize other posters.

I have been doing research longer then most on this board. I always try to keep an open mind to new ideas. There is nothing I wrote in my original post that tried to, "close the debate."

My goal was to remind those that were unaware, of the detail analysis of the Stone Maps that Thomas Probert published in Treasure Magazine, June and July of 1976. Thomas Probert was an Industrial Engineer that spent his retirement years researching and seeking treasures. In 1977 he published one of the most comprehensive reference books, "Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the West." (Much of the information for the book was obtained from my friend, Milton F. Rose.)

Probert compared the map on the stones with several other maps. In the article he printed a poor copy of an 1695 Kino map for reference. Without getting into the nitty-gritty details, Probert presented a good case for consideration. The figure standing on a base on stone #1 is a Priest. On the base is an "S" which indicates "South". The "N" to the right indicates the trail is to the "North". The cross he is hold points to the trail. The numbers indicate 17 places to reach the destination. There are two boxes that contain crosses. These are major missions. The crytic means that a mission will be the fourth place from the start of the journey. The cryptic "8-N" means there will be a major mission at the eighth place on the journey. (Probert shared the idea that the words "Miguel", "Sonora, Mex", and 1847 were added to the stones at a much later date. He also believes that the name "Pedro" was added after the stones were found.) The horse side of the stone has an "E" near the tail which means "East". He suggests that the "G-M" stands for Garza and Mendoza, two families that had extensive mineral grants in the area from 1749 to 1753. The grants were located just south of the Gila River. The cross above "EL" is a mission location. The two circles give a general relative position of the mines. The hat is a high domed mountain which he thinks is Picacho Peak, which is located north of the mines. The 5 places north of the river are mineral locations.

On the back side of the stones at the beginning of the trail there appears to be a building or tombstone with a cross next to it. This is the Ures Mission. The line to the East is the main trail to the North. The first dot is also Ures. The destination circle on the heart is West of the last dot, which Probert labels as Casa Grande. (I think there may be other possibilities here.) The "X" on the heart and the "X" to the right of place #3 indicate the location of the major Missions. The fourth dot back from the location is Del Bac. On the South it is the Huepac Mission. Probert identifies 45 landmarks in his analyses, and most of them seem to make good sense. If you are interested in further details the magazine articles provide plenty of provoking thought.

As far as the legends of Jesuit treasure, the debates will go on forever. The Jesuits were brought over to New Spain by the Spanish King. Their main job was to bring Christianity to the pagans. Padre Kino was very effective in opening the land called Primera Alta with missions in Sonora, along the S. Maria (now the Santa Cruz), and down the Gila to the Colorado River. The priests may have been unpopular with many because they opposed the practice of forcing the Indians into slavery. The Jesuits were repeatedly warned not to engage in mining, and yet there is historical evidence that shows they did some mining. The Jesuit order was arrested and deported in 1767-1768. Most of the mining was done by Spanish colonials. Billions of dollars of weath was taken out of Mexico for over 200 years. Tayopa was located near the Jesuit School and Headquarters at Matape, and the inventory of church items that were hidden during the 1646-48 rebellion is well known to most treasure hunters. When the Spanish soldier arrived at many of the missions to arrest the Jesuits, they did not find much in the way of valuables, and it appeared that things of value were no where to be found. Did the Jesuits or the Indian parishoners hide what they had? Quien sabe!

I know some things that I will not disclose. What I will tell you may answer a long standing mystery. The famous Molina waybill is a forgery. The forgery was loaned to John D. Mitchell by Milton F. Rose. Mitchell went in search of the mines described and located several of them with the help of an old Pima Indian. Mitchell wrote his 1933 book using the document as a basis for several of his stories. Milton and Dewey Rose's business, the Rose Printery, published the book for Mitchell. Some of the stories were pure fiction like the one on Carreta Canyon. The forgery was also used by Gil Proctor for the books he wrote. I don't think that either one of them knew that it was a counterfeit. More recently, Gary Don Oliver used it his book. The real document looked and was constructed differently, and was used to create the well known Molina. Just because the document is a forgery, it does not mean that the information was false. Treasure has been found at some of the locations described in the Molina.

 

[fritter]

Hello everyone

You people make good points, especially igadbois and cactusjumper. I am learning alot !

Thanks !

 

[Blazer]

lgadbois,

Thanks for the info on the Molina waybill. I have heard that before somewhere but I can't remember the source right now. You knew Milton Rose? There is not a lot of information about him in print. I'll bet he was an interesting character! Got any personal stories about him that you can share? I was told the he and Clay Worst had a partnership in a mining claim somewhere. Do you have any info on that story or know where the claim was?

Blazer

 

[the blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote:<snip>...they are as good as fakes , even if they are real.


Finally something we can agree on! There are SO many "treasure maps" out there, with SO few being worth anything more than as curiosity/artwork, these stones are of highly questionable value - whether real or frauds.

Oroblanco

tonight me and my girlfriend were planing some of the equipment time . how long each task will take and that kind of thing . when we came up with a few odd facts about one of my sites .

it is up high on a mt and there is only one way down and a few ways up . but the site has a odd fact about it . it takes about 3 hours to reach the bottom of the mt and 3 hours to reach the site it self .. we got talking and there is no way a person can go to the site and get back out of the mts before night fall with no gear at all ... for one it took around 2 gallons of water to reach the bottom of the mt . let alone the site ...that would be about 4 gallons of water one way ...think about it ....

thats why the hiden camp is so importain . the mules needed water . he could go up to the mine with 6-8 gallons if he started at the hiden camp with that much water he could make the trip to the site ,and back down to the hiden camp again ....


i saw the water at the hiden camp ...

now it makes sense . he could have gone up the other way but its much steeper and he would have had to carrie less water and come back down the other way is longer and would take more time and water ...he could not have gone up the steep way up the mt ..it would have taken longer to climb up to the site that way ...

i have a picture of weavers needle that looks just like it dose in the peralta -ruth map ... that picture was taken from ( looking out the window of the rock house i found at site 5 ...)

how the peralta got the mine from the jesuit is a real good question yet anyone that found the mine had to know about the water at hiden camp ...unless kino told or wrote about it some where else in his records ...

we know that there was spainish with in 200ft of the hiden camp ...from the spanish arrow i found ... dr thorne states he saw a quadtringle of peaks around him, this is what we found at the rock house ...

the odd fact i was talking about is . if i am right, this would explan why the dutchman left the big cache at the rock house ...he would have had to split the load up into smaller amonts because he could not carry the gold and the water , one or the other or a small amont of both ... 50- 60 lbs max ....IMHO ...

how much was found under his bed ?

he had to stop at the hiden camp for water before the climb up to the mine , thats where we found the nephew site ....he said they were going to the mine when he shot him ! was the stick we found near by the nephew's walking stick laying where he was shot ,is the nephew site his grave site ,,,

are the peralta graves at the hiden camp near the rock house ...?was the peralta stones taken from the peralta and left far away to mis leed others ?

is the reason the hiden camp was there was because of the water or is the tunnle the reason the hiden camp was there ...?

is the big cache still there ...?

yes i agree Oro......

the stone have little to do with my research at this point ,.... i have a few questions to answer ....

when dose a golden statue turn black?

when its coverd in 200 -300 years of cave dust ...lol

 

[Homesteader]

Many years ago, I heard Mr. Kenworthy give a talk in Apache Junction on the maps. If I remember correctly, he was going to put out a book on them, but I don't think he ever did.

Personally, I always kind of took what he said and published with a grain of salt, but he did have some interesting ideas and was wondering if anyone had any more info on his research on the maps.

His basic theory was that the two map stones would only get you to the right general area and the directions on the Horse map will lead to the actual mine site.

In the original set, the priest map and the horse map are back to back on the same stone and the Horse side map has code that makes it a "mirror image" map and must be reversed If you tried to read the Horse side map with the top North and East to the right, you would go in the wrong direction.

The maps are interesting, even if they might be a hoax or of later origin. I think whoever did them was very well-versed in sign and symbols, the dutchman hunt and Superstition geography/markers and Jesuit history.

 

[cactusjumper]

Igad,

"You wrote, "Sorry you took that as a personal attack." Then you wrote, "a weak minded attempt to avoid coming up with facts or evidence to support your shoddy research." Do you think that I appreciate being called "weak minded" or "doing shoddy research"? They both sound like attacks to me. I see that you, in your rough shod way, have misaligned and made derogatory remarks about others on TreasureNet, and then apologized. It would be better for all if you be more careful about how you quote and criticize other posters."

I see you can't take a compliment either.

My thanks for the apology.

I am not really sure that I have "misaligned" anyone here, but will take your word for it.

Had I realized that "Treasure Magazine" was the source material for much of your research, I would have thought twice before ever questioning your facts. In that regard, you need take a back seat to no one on this Forum.

Once again, thank you for your apology. None was really needed, as I am not easily offended by people with your level of intelligence. You may just assume, in the future, that everything you say just goes over my head.

Nice post.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Blindbowman wrote: how much was found under his bed ?

Only Dick Holmes could answer that - and he is on the far side of the river Styx so we can't ask him. How much would fit in a shoe box? By bulk, not a lot, but by weight a considerable amount.

The statue could be blackened by painting also, or by the expedient of smoke from a fire. I have another question for you - where does the gold statue originate?

Oroblanco

 

[Seventytwo]

72,

Are you saying that the LDM is in Upper La Barge Canyon?

cj

Yes, I Have been there.
The topo maps where the key to finding the mine.

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

Not sure that desert varnish actually forms on gold.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi CJ - not to take Mrs Oro's thunder but the Arizona state geology (monthly) newsletter had a couple of articles on it some years ago, yes gold will take on "desert varnish" over time, requiring around a thousand years to build up ONE millimeter of thickness, so....a gold statue would have to be laying exposed to the elements for quite some time to become black in that way.

Oroblanco