The Peralta Stones

[Eddiehoo]

Do any of you guys give any credibility to Bob Brewer's book concerning the stones? I personally haven't seen nor read any explanation other than his that was that well thought out.

Any comments?

 

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[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman sorry to hear about your brother - but glad that he survived it and hope he will be on the mend soon. Don't worry about having to put off your expedition - no one has found it in all these years, so it is safe! Besides, as Mrs Oro said, you can re-schedule a trip, but can't a life.

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Do any of you guys give any credibility to Bob Brewer's book concerning the stones? I personally haven't seen nor read any explanation other than his that was that well thought out.

Any comments?

Since there is no closure on the topic, Brewer's ideas, like all other theories concerning the stones, are unproven at this time. My guess is that there are some who know the true nature of the tablets but that all published information about is merely speculation. It's a funny thing about treasure maps - you can force them to fit a number of locations if you try hard enough.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

There is no need to "force" the Stone Tablets into any area. Once you are on the right trail they flow in a natural and orderly path.

cj

 

[russau]

some interesting info can be gained at St. Louis University in St.Louis Mo. the original Jesuit missionarys were trained in north St.Louis MO. off Howderschell Rd. it had all the original beds,cooking facilitys,wood working tools and shop that these missionarys used in their training.......it had their original solid gold chalaces and candel holders....it was a real interseting tour, but what caught my eye was all the hand drawn maps from these missionarys tours. a lot of these were fron the s.west and also up into canda.Fr.DeSmidts grave,along with many others. this building/musem was closed and all of this equipment was moved to St.Louis University in down town St.Louis Mo. if your interested in the jesuits travels and the storys of the gold mines, youll be in for a treat touring this facility. the phone number of St.L.U museum of contemporary & religious art is (314)977-7170

 

[Oroblanco]

Way to go - I'm glad to hear about your brother.


B

Ditto from Oroblanco! Good luck and good hunting buddy!

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

I think he is singing your song here. Isn't that the same story you just told me last week?

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

BC,

There have been times here, when I have felt like this Forum was an extension of American Idol, and then someone like BlindBowMan or BC comes along and words like "Genius" and brilliance seem inadequate.

The written word is like a fine-edged sword. It can powerfully cleave through the strongest body or caress the finest hair from the back of a child's arm. We are all at the mercy of the warrior who carefully wields that sword.

I couldn't agree with you more.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Thank you for explaining your theory. Some of your statements have got me confused. I have a few questions remaining, and would appreciate if you could elaborate. (If you would rather not, as we have discussed much of this in depth already, I will understand.)

Blindbowman wrote:

it is true the Miguel Peralt was killed about 1848-1850 and they did beleave he was at the massacre site and got away

Can you confirm that Miguel Peralta was killed in that time frame, in some sort of records or archives? If the massacre took place in 1700-1703, how did Miguel get involved in the 1840s?

Blindbowman wrote:

the dutchman did in fact shoot miguel peralta and two others of his family but the mine was not a peralta mine

How can we prove, for a fact, that Jacob Waltz shot Miguel Peralta and two others of his family?

Blindbowman wrote:

thus the name don and the name pedro on the stones ..because of the simple fact the mans's full name was ( DON Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza )

If this is true, why did they not include the name Gonzales OR Mendoza on the stones? This does not make sense to me.

Blindbowman wrote:

how dose it fit togather . Vaca finds the mine from the indains he passes the location & reports back to the jesuit chruch records from there kino goes and finds the mine telling his friends to help untill the indains massacre at tayopa , if i am right there is only one massacre around 1700-1703.... kino is almost killed and the loss of the mine ends up back in the hands of miguel peralta threw don pedro gonzalez de mendoza , threw the relationship of the two families . mendoza and the peralta , IMHO this is why no one saw the relationship because it was threw marriages between the families ....i read a peice of data that stated one of the gonzalez de mendoza had a wife that was a peralta ,,, so the story about Miguel peralta could very well be true .as the dutchman killing him and two others .....as well as the Ruth Gonzalez map .. being true

Okay several questions on this paragraph; first, have you read the available information from de Vaca? Why would you conclude that de Vaca found the mine? As you know from your history, de Vaca was the first European to successfully travel overland from Florida to Mexico, and his report is known as "La Relacion". If you have the time and want to know more, it is available online at:

http://www.library.txstate.edu/swwc/cdv/
(Interesting stuff really!)

I could not find any mention in his report that sounds quite like something in the Superstitions, but perhaps you can point it out to me? I would appreciate it.

Second, de Vaca published his "Relacion" in 1555, while father Kino we have already covered was active in Sonora (southern Arizona) 1687-1711, or over 100 years after de Vaca published his report, quite a span of time. Why did you conclude that de Vaca reported his find(s) to the Jesuits, and no one would have bothered to go investigate for over 100 years? We are pretty sure that Coronado, whose expedition was at least partially due to the report of deVaca, did not venture into the Superstitions, so he is 'out' for this question.

Next question,

<reminder, from above paragraph, from Blindbowman>if i am right there is only one massacre around 1700-1703.... kino is almost killed and the loss of the mine ends up back in the hands of miguel peralta threw don pedro gonzalez de mendoza , threw the relationship of the two families . mendoza and the peralta

Why did you conclude the massacre occurred in that time-frame, 1700-1703?

Why would you say that father Kino was "almost killed"? (There is a great deal of information on father Kino available online)

Why does it "have" to be father Kino, if any Jesuits at all?

I fail to see how the mine ownership then passes from Kino to Peralta. The Jesuits activities in mining had to be in secret as it was against the law for them to be involved at all, and it is hard to imagine the church turning over ownership of such a profitable property as a rich gold mine to a lay person.

I won't repeat the question (posted above) but have you found some sort of record that proves Jacob Waltz killed Peraltas?

Blindbowman wrote:

" Kino did make the Peralta _Ruth map , Don Perdo Gonzalez de Mendoza made the stones ..." and Miguel peralta could have been shot by the dutchman !

Father Kino was indeed a map-maker, - why did you now conclude that it had to be father Kino that made the Peralta-Ruth map?

Mendoza made the stone maps? Why did you conclude that it was the hand of Mendoza, when (at least as far as I could find), he never ventured into the Superstitions?

Miguel Peralta "could" have been shot by Waltz? ("Could" is a different statement from "fact") The time-line is a problem again. If Miguel Peralta was shot and killed in 1848-1850, we can safely RULE OUT Jacob Waltz as the killer, since we fairly well know his whereabouts at that time - here is an extract,

Waltz filed his letter of intent to become a citizen of the United States on November 12, 1848, in the Adams County Courthouse in Natchez, Mississippi. Waltz soon made plans to travel west to the goldfields of California.

Jacob Waltz arrived in California about 1850. His name appears on several California census records. He prospected and worked as a miner in the mother lode country of California for eleven years. It was on July 19, 1861, in the Los Angeles County Courthouse, Jacob Waltz became a naturalized citizen of the United States of America. Waltz worked as a miner on the San Gabriel River for a man named Ruben Blakney. It was probably here he met Elisha M. Reavis, later to become the "Hermit of Superstition Mountain."

Waltz departed California in 1863, with the Peeples-Weaver Party or a similar group of prospectors headed for the Bradshaw Mountains of Arizona Territory. Waltz was one of the earliest pioneer prospectors in the Bradshaw Mountain area. Waltz's name appears on the Gross Claim which was filed in Prescott, Arizona Territory on September 21, 1863. His name also appears on a special territorial census taken in 1864.

On this census Waltz is listed as a miner, 54 years of age, and a native of Germany. Waltz's name also appeared on a petition to territorial governor John N. Goodwin soliciting a militia to control the predatory raids of hostile Indians in the Bradshaw Mountains. Jacob Waltz's name also appeared on the Big Rebel and the General Grant claims in the Bradshaw Mountains. Waltz was very active in the Bradshaw Mountain area between 1863-67.

Jacob Waltz moved to the Salt River Valley in 1868 and filed a homestead claim on 160 acres of land on the north bank of the Salt River. It is from here Waltz began his exploratory trips into the mountains surrounding the Salt River Valley. If Waltz had a rich gold mine or cache he had to have discovered it on one of these prospecting forays. Old timers claim Waltz prospected every winter between 1868-1886. Waltz died in Phoenix, Arizona Territory on October 25, 1891, in the home of Julia Thomas.

(from http://www.superstitionmountainmuseum.org/LostDutchmanExhibit.htm)
(Note, Bradshaw mountains are some distance from the Superstition range)

I think you can see the problem - Waltz was not IN Arizona until 1863, or at least 13 years after Miguel had been shot and killed, if we can prove that one Miguel Peralta was in fact murdered in that time period, Waltz was definitely NOT the killer.

I would make a suggestion, since you have to put off the expedition for a time anyway - it might be helpful to draw up a chart with a time-line on it, (like we see in some history books), and mark on it the time periods when deVaca was passing through Arizona, when father Kino was exploring, when the Peraltas are alleged to have been active (I have never found any absolute proof to support the Peralta legends) as well as the time frame when Jacob Waltz was active in the region. For myself, the time-line problems are quite an obstacle in your theory, but if it makes sense to you, that is really all that matters - that is, of course until the final proof is found and recovered. Then any remaining questions can be put to rest absolutely.

With over 100 years having passed since Waltz passed away and with so many hunters for the treasure(s), it is unlikely for someone to come up with a completely new theory, but I think Blindbowman has managed to do so at least in some parts.

Good luck and good hunting to you, (and to everyone here) and thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

BlindBowMan,

I have a number of sources which detail the life of Father Kino.


"...because one of the Medonza when to school with cabeza de vaca in jesuit collage of Parma . sorry Kino did not go to Parma . his real name did . Eusebio Francisco Chini (KINO) ....he changed his name ....ya that threw me off too !"

Can you tell us the source for this information?

As far as I know, Father Kino's education took place in Germany. Having read the early history of Cabeza de Vaca, I don't remember anything about him attending a Jesuit College. He was a soldier.

Any help you can provide in pointing me in the right direction for this historical information would be appreciated.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Blindbowman for explaining further. Chasing down legends is always difficult business, and when the legends are in the Superstitions they take on a life of their own! I think it is "crazy" for a person NOT to pursue their dreams. Of course that may help explain why I am not wealthy! Good luck and good hunting to you,

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

"Thank you Blindbowman for explaining further. Chasing down legends is always difficult business, and when the legends are in the Superstitions they take on a life of their own! I think it is "crazy" for a person NOT to pursue their dreams. Of course that may help explain why I am not wealthy! Good luck and good hunting to you,

Oroblanco"

Oro: Don't you get it? It's all been a joke ... a computer game of sorts. (1) Post the most ridiculous pipedream analysis as reality and then, 2) sit back and wait for a series of rebuttals from the rational seekers. My hat's off to him ... he's kept the ball rolling for a couple months here.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

I suppose you will next be telling us there is no Santa Clause.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

BC,

One of the lessons from American Idol, is that it is sometimes best to tell people they can't carry a tune. Otherwise they end up on national TV making a fool of themselves and getting their hearts broken. Many of them have no idea how bad their singing really is.

Now it may be true, as Springfield says, that BlindBowMan is just having a good time here. On the other hand, it's possible he believes everything he says. I have known a number of folks who's theories are just as far off the beaten path as his. It's goes with the title of Dutch Hunter....more often than not.

Of course, none of that applies to me......, and I am not so sure about you.

cj

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=mrs.oroblanco
Where is Jose when I need him.B
***************

Right here Love; (hush oro)

My wife's name is Berta Olivas Curry

Her single and legal name is Berta Olivas Valdez, Olivas is her fathers name, Valdez is her mothers side, Grandfather.

This is what we registered the mining claims with.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=the blindbowman
...
thats the funny thing here all mexicans look alike lol ..
***************

Nah, no way meet mi wife
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Tropical Tramp


..






[/quote]

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

I don't know how much time you have actually spent in the Superstitions, but I can assure you that there are hundreds of old mines, some of value, and a number of worthless holes in the ground. Only time will tell what you have.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

there is no Santa Clause

WHAT!!??!! What is next, I suppose you are going to tell me there is no Easter Bunny

Ah, organization - something I really, really need to get done in my own 'archives' - of course they all started out being "organized" but since then, moving, jumbling etc now..... it is a "treasure hunt" to find anything in there. Oh well at least bookworms haven't eaten it all up...yet! (Did you know there is a type of worm that eats paper in books? I found a book with them in it once at an auction - had worm-holes all though the book which otherwise might have been worth something.) Some fine day, I will get the courage up (and ambition) to get it done.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Your historical "facts" have nothing to do with whatever you may have found in the Superstitions. Most of them have little to do with history.

The problem here, is that most of what you say, of a historical nature, is so abysmally false, that anyone who knows the history of the era, has to believe you are just playing a game. No one who has read as much as Mrs. Oroblanco correctly noticed you have, could be so wrong....so often, by accident.

If you are serious, the best thing you could do would be to not spend a ton of money, but go in and just take a close look at what you have found.

Four or five "sites", in close proximity, in the Superstitions would not go unnoticed . If you are over in the Iron Mt. area, there are many mines (silver) all clustered fairly closely together. There are the ruins of stone houses in the area. There are few, if any, multiple sites in the Superstitions that have not been known for many, many years.

By posting on a public forum, such as this, you open up everything you say to unsolicited comments and critique. I will probably receive my share for this post. That's all part of "going public". If you don't want that kind of heat, don't go on American Idol singing like Tiny Tim.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Sometimes I cannot tell when someone is just pulling my leg online, and I think Blindbowman has fooled me more than once! I think Cactusjumper's recommendation is a good one Blindbowman, it has the advantages of not risking a large amount of money until you KNOW what you have found. It doesn't cost much to just go in and poke around a bit more, might turn up absolute, conclusive evidence that clearly would justify spending your capital to recover a treasure, or at worst have a great time in some of God's country.

Good luck and good hunting to you (even Wabbits heh heh hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco