The Peralta Stones

[cactusjumper]

Re: Jesuit Treasure

Oroblanco,

"Now con-sarn it - Blindbowman have you considered the time line involved here? Father Eusebio Kino, (the famous one) was born in 1644. He became a member of the Society of Jesus in 1665, when he was 21. Kino left Spain in 1681 for Mexico, and had several activities before arriving in Sonora, which at that time included Pimeria Alta (southern Arizona) in 1687. Now why is this of any importance? Well you might ask......"

Few treasure hunters have taken the time, as you seem to have, to really study the history of the Jesuits in Mexico or of Father Kino specifically.

"Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver" seems to be the "Bible" and principle source of reference for many. "An American Original: The Life Of J. Frank Dobie" by, Lon Tinkle gives a pretty good insight into Dobie's main interest in life, namely folklore. Having said that, Dobie was one of the great experts on the legend of Tayopa.

I get a lot of chuckles out of reading some of the bending of history that takes place here, and in other forums, all to justify someones belief in Jesuit Treasure. Kino's first visit to Sonora, in Feb. 1687 is well documented, but that is not enough evidence to dispel legends. "What about his undocumented visits?"

Because I once believed that the Stone Maps led to a Jesuit Treasure, I spent a lot of time and money educating myself on the related history. The time was not wasted, and I still enjoy reading about it. I am no expert, but I am a fan of history.

cj

 

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[Oroblanco]

Thank you, Cactusjumper, for the kind words - much of this info is available online. I only wanted to point out the timeline problems with connecting father Kino-to-Tayopa-to the Superstitions, which I think he may have missed. It should make no difference in his exploration and any discoveries can be positively identified after recovering them. Where Tayopa is concerned, we have almost as tangled a 'minefield' of BS and conflicting stories as with the LDM. Mitchell for instance, a treasure-author I enjoy reading, even has the date of Tayopa's discovery as 1703! This date does not agree with any other source I could find, but might fit with Tayopa #2, "Dios Padre". I do wish I had figured out (as Tropical Tramp did, successfully) that there were really three Tayopa's over the years, in three separate locations, in retrospect it explains a great many things.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

thanks for helping me make sence of something that has been driveing me nuts for weeks . at one point i thaught the letters P W were writen under the spainish arrow . after takeing a secound look the P is the letters (DE)and the e is almost worn off ,the W is not a W at all is a (VA ) and you can just make out the other two letters CA, how do i know , because lower on the wall i could see part of another word but i only got the last 3 letters of the word ( I R A ) and i thaught it was the chruch letters on the cross . but now it makes sence, its the last 3 letter of the word Topira , i guess your right . i have found the Topira ...

if this is the case ,than vaca found the mine or the indains told him about it ...and that makes sence because that must of been how Marcos de niza learn of cibola , note marcos uses the same map as vaca route in 1535-36 and uses the same map in 1539 , so now it make a better logic , the mine is a older mine and very well hiden ,, ..and the jesuit treasure trove is in the tunnle ...that would be very smart because thats as far away from the sea and the spainish as the jesuits could get the treasure from the spainish ..


now it makes sence kino tryed to reopen one of the mines but it was not the Tayopa .. it was the Topira but when all hell broke lose he hide the jesuit treasure trove in the tunnle at Topira ...because it was the one tunnle that he knew no one would find ....

now this could get very interesting ...so what we can logically figer out at this point is IMHO the tunnle i have found could be the Topira founded in 1535-36 by Cabeza de vaca ...

just a real good guess ...maybe we are both right and both wrong at the same time for two diffrent reasons , because there are two diffrent mines being confused ...now ask your self wich is the real mine .is the wealthy mine the topira or the tayopa....if what you said Oro is true than the topira is the older of the two if i am right ..its where the jesuit put the treasure trove ...

 

[the blindbowman]

Thank you, Cactusjumper, for the kind words - much of this info is available online. I only wanted to point out the timeline problems with connecting father Kino-to-Tayopa-to the Superstitions, which I think he may have missed. It should make no difference in his exploration and any discoveries can be positively identified after recovering them. Where Tayopa is concerned, we have almost as tangled a 'minefield' of BS and conflicting stories as with the LDM. Mitchell for instance, a treasure-author I enjoy reading, even has the date of Tayopa's discovery as 1703! This date does not agree with any other source I could find, but might fit with Tayopa #2, "Dios Padre". I do wish I had figured out (as Tropical Tramp did, successfully) that there were really three Tayopa's over the years, in three separate locations, in retrospect it explains a great many things.

Oroblanco

thats make sence the 1703 is not when the mine was discoverd, it was when it was coverd over by kino and it was not the Tayopa it was the Topira ... may be the real mines name changed "dois padre" to the "Topira" than to the "Tayopa " the" Pa" is what it is called in the Peralta Ruth map . i found it , you figer out what to call it!and wich one it is ...?

you can call it what ever you want . Tayopa #1 ,#2 or # 3 or #" pa" the topira ...

i found the mine , spell it any way you want ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:i found the mine , spell it any way you want ...

What's in a name, anyway? The only reason I mentioned the Topira mine was that some who have searched for Tayopa thought this was the earliest reference to it, just spelled differently; you will find Tayopa spelled in a number of different ways in the old archives - I think some have been listed here but Tayopa and Tayope are common use today. I have seen it spelled Taiope, Ti-opa, Taope, Teyopi, etc and Tropical Tramp mentioned some that I missed. The next trick is proving that what you have found IS a mine, then figure out who created it and when. If you were to find old church treasures, even that is not a LOCK that it was Jesuits involved, remember there were OTHER missionaries active in the southwest - and they took over when the Jesuits were driven out - the Franciscans; there were also other foreign powers involved, the Russians coming from the north, the Dutch coming from the Pacific (where they acted as "pirates" attacking all Spanish shipping they could find, the Jesuits were accused of being in league secretly with the Dutch BTW in a conspiracy to expel the Spanish from the New World) and the French later.

Blindbowman, why would you say it was de Vaca who found Topira? Also, most place Topira in Durango, not Sonora (or Pimeria Alta/southern Arizona) and Coronado looked for it, after Mendoza had heard of the gold and gems (this is why I don't believe that references to Topira were really talking about Tayopa).....so not sure why you would make this connection to the Superstitions. Topira = Tayopa? No.....but the Topira of old records was in what is today Durango, not Arizona.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

you got a good point after thinking about it . Oro . at the time all i can say is the letters IRA are on the wall under the spainish arrow and the word de vaca is on the wall also . , i know the name of the mine is referd to as Pa that i can prove out right by the peralta -ruth map . because it is 100% correct to the mines location .. ORo i am going to PM you and ask you something if you could help maybe we can clear up some of the confussion about wich mine this ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=mrs.oroblanco ]
Hey Mike,Just couldn't find a sacrificial virgin b
***********

NOT WHILE WE HAVE HIM! HE is expendable, they are not!

Sheehs

Tropical Tramp KOV (keeper pf the royal er ah Virgins.)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Topira / i has been worked since the begining, and is still being worked. It is in the Durago /Sinaloa border.

Tropical Tramp
p.s. I have refered to Mithcel , Dobie etc before, they wrote with , ah shall we say, literary abandon. None have ever been to Tayopa. Dobie's remark on the Grizzly being on the cross roads is correct though.

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

I would say you have your information on Topira down pat.

"On his return to Culiacán a few weeks later, Marcos gave an account of his discoveries in glowing words, although it is likely that he saw very little and understood only imperfectly what was told him. The Indians of Topira, he said, had come out to receive him joyously. "'There are no great cities there, but the houses are built of stone and are very good, and in them they have a great store of gold, which is as it were lost, because they do not know what use to put it to.'" The Durango Indians did have a quantity of placer gold which they used in trade with the coast, and it was probably this gold that had lured Guzmán to exhaust his forces in repeated attempts to penetrate the sierras in 1531. It is harder to find any shadow of foundation for the wonderful story of Marcos that "'the people wear emeralds and other precious jewels upon their bodies; they are valiant, having very strong armor made of silver, fashioned after divers shapes of beasts.'" They were willing, after a little persuasion from Marcos, to become Christians and subjects of Spain, and to trade their gold for things more useful to them.

This report of Marcos--to which he added a hearsay account of the barbarous savages of the interior, and their temples of skulls and living sacrifices of men on burning pyres--was so promising that Coronado decided to conquer Topira." "CORONADO'S QUEST" by, A. Grove Day. (emphasis in bold by cj)

cj

 

[the blindbowman]

thats funny you say that Cj . "and their temples of skulls" this is just what i sense when i key into the tunnle ...thats a good discription .... my point was if vaca herd of the cave /tunnle from the indains and Marcos herd it from vaca and Coronado got it from them and so on and so on ..untill the cain was broken and the mine was lost ...

this dose nt make any sense ... the mine i found is the one in the peralta ruth map than what mine is it ? and its from about 1535 if the words de vaca stand for cabeza .. so why confuse the two wordings Tayopa and Topira if the mine could be knows as PA is this a mine know as PA that no one knows about or is the names just being confussed to hide the real name of this mine ,or the rock house it self , if the code holds true the ma and pa would be part of the real name , and the real name would be 6 letters long something like piamia or piamia, or it could have a 7th letter added .or one removed like pimeria or paramo,

is the statement . " the richest mines of the world " refering to the Tayopa ,Topira and this mine i can only name by name as ( Pa ) at this point in time, maybe it is the oldest of the 3 ...maybe its not ether of the other two ...anyone got any idea of what mine this is,,,,,

its funny we talk about the peralta stones and the peralta ruth map and no one has any real idea what mine they are refering to lol

if what i saw is the LDM and it dose show up on both the peralta stones and the peralta ruth map ... than this mine may have been related to the other two or is one of them or a mine unknown ,,....i find that hard to beleave . this cave opening or tunnle is 9ft around and as far as i could tell over a 100ft deep aand its at lest 200 years or more old ..IMHO

no wonder the indains were so pist off . someone killed there PA ! lol

 

[the blindbowman]

may be the mines real name was the MaPa like the peralta -ruth map said it was . we just misunder stood it because we wanted it to be some other well know legendary mine ...maybe it did not say perfil map a' ... it could have ment perfil Ma'Pa.....good luck figer that one out ! lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

De Vaca means, Of Cow. Joke from a cowpuncher?

cj

 

[the blindbowman]

ha ha ... i dont under stand what all this means yet but i am going back to the photos one by one , last night i found the # 4 and upside down V beside it over the tunnle area .. dose it stand for ( 4 mts aline ) i also found in that same area a triangle with a dot in the medle and a few ft away a circle with a dot ...

i guess my work has just begone...

at this point i have know idea of what this mines real name is or if it even matters at this point in time ...

 

[Springfield]

cj: " ... and it was probably this gold that had lured Guzmán to exhaust his forces in repeated attempts to penetrate the sierras in 1531. It is harder to find any shadow of foundation for the wonderful story of Marcos that "'the people wear emeralds and other precious jewels upon their bodies; they are valiant, having very strong armor made of silver, fashioned after divers shapes of beasts.'" They were willing, after a little persuasion from Marcos, to become Christians and subjects of Spain, and to trade their gold for things more useful to them.

This report of Marcos--to which he added a hearsay account of the barbarous savages of the interior, and their temples of skulls and living sacrifices of men on burning pyres--was so promising that Coronado decided to conquer Topira." "CORONADO'S QUEST" by, A. Grove Day...."

Mr. Day's poetic license notwithstanding, you've opened up an interesting oyster here cj, maybe one with a pearl. It's too bad we don't have more evidence of Guzman's activities on the Northern Frontier and the information that drove his efforts. Something apparently important lured his bad ass to this previously unexplored region. Emeralds, eh? Cabeza de Vaca's accounts of emerald jewelry and emerald arrowheads have long been dismissed as 'fanciful'. However, when Mel Fisher recovered a billion dollars worth of emeralds on the Atocha (not listed on the ship's manifest), he didn't merely pocket them ... he presumably had aquired enough information to attempt to locate their source. I can tell you where he was looking (based on written correspondence from his company with certain people in NM) - at a specific site generally along Cabeza de Vaca's travel route beyond the Northern Frontier. Again, as I've mentioned elsewhere, Marcos de Niza, the enigmatic and controversial Italian Franciscan who explored this region in 1539 (led by Estevanico, a member of the de Vaca party), is the wild card in this saga. Marcos' activities don't shed much light on the locations of either the LDM or Tayopa, but they may yet lead to an even larger discovery.

 

[the blindbowman]

i just got done reading that same report on marcos .... the modern genaration is incompetent , that me prove it .. frist my son in law tells me his phone chager is not working right , than a few days latter he tells me his phone chager is not working right ... a few more days go by and he says you got it ! his phone chager is not working right . i say why dont you have it fixed than . he says ok . so he comes back a few days latter bitc-en that they said the chager dosent fit his phone and he had to order a new for his phone and they told him it would take two weeks , and i ask them if thats the case did they give you back your old broken chager he said i told thewm to throw it away . than he ask me if he can use my phone because i dont use it very much . i say Ok and he goes over and gets the phone and ask me where the chager is . i go over and look and there is his cbroken chager on the window sile... incompetent !now i got to wait to get another phone charger the same way he dose . and there was nothing wrong with my chager to start with ...

so here i am wondering if hunting for the lost dutchman mine is smarter than the level of the kids now days ...

its been one of those weeks ...

this kid ask me if he can go with me on my next trip i said , hell no !

he 23 and acts like 12 ....

yes springfield i agree . we asume the location of the peralta -ruth map had a relationship to the DLM and than i beleave it could relate to the tayopa or the topira . now all we can besure of it is a very very old mine and fits the peralta-ruth map and the peralta stones ...and the dutchman clues yet the dtuchman mine may be related and his past is late 1800's it dose not mean this tunnle mine or the pit are that new...,

in fact at this point i can prove these locations are at lest early 1500's or earlyer by the looks of the evidence being found around them ...

another good point to make here is . even if the DLM was true it dose not mean that the mine and the tunnle are not much older than the LDM legend and thats just what i am finding at this time ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI bowman, one can have fun with that, but don't put too much into finding what you hope that you are seeing unless based upon other stories / data.




Tayopa-------at pa -----------remove (oy ) Top, Tap, Toy, yep, pat, pet, pay pot, ya, yap, etc.

Remedios ----rome is----------remove (de) medios, Dios, dime, red, deer, dore, rim, ride, and on.
P iedad---------Paid------------remove( ed) Pie, dad, dip, dap, dar, did, dead, pie, also on and on

Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"in fact at this point i can prove these locations are at lest early 1500's or earlyer by the looks of the evidence being found around them ..."

Can you tell us what is there that will "prove these locations are at lest early 1500's or earlyer..."?

cj

 

[the blindbowman]

it no longer matters at this point ... yesterday my brother (electrical engineer & and computer programer) had a full blow heart attack,he says he will go even if the doctors say no .....i cant let that happen ... we all know the risk each time we go out in the field ... i dont know anyone that can do that job and i could come close but not and do everything else i need to do at the same time ...

and takeing two lesser trained people to try to do his job is out of question ...

untill i find away around this draw back the expedition 3 is on a undetermend holding pattern ...

the doctor said if we had pushed him and not let him rest, he would not be here right now .....

so if anyone in your groups says they need to rest, give them time and slow your pace down or they may take a lot longer rest than you think !


at this point, i have no idea how to get around this or even if there is a way around it ....

you guys take care and keep up the hunt ...

stay safe stay free

 

[the blindbowman]

25 years eletrical tech and engneering with a back ground in computer lay out and design and programming .he had 7 or 8 diffrent jobs on the expedition ...its just hard to replace anyone with higher skills to just take off and go for a 26 day expedition ...

 

[the blindbowman]

i hear ya , i am setting here drinking mike's hard lemonade.. tonight ... got the girlfriend a new wide screen monitor for her computer and some new ps2 games for the kid , so that should keep them out of my hair so i can have a drink tonight and do some less thinking lol...