sgtfda
Bronze Member
That's what I heard. He bought it off Brownie when he needed some cash.
I have the paperback edition.
I have the paperback edition.
That's what I heard. He bought it off Brownie when he needed some cash.
I have the paperback edition.
You asked Joe. I also read it somewhere that it was bought when Brownie got sick. I'm not familiar with Clays preference on these things. Only talked to him in a group and he did not say much. Does this mean I'm in the lower camp doghouse now.
Frank,
The lower camp does not have a doghouse. Those abodes are reserved for the upper camp. This will be Carolyn's and my last Rendezvous. I have hopes that someone like you will take our place.
Take care,
Joe
Thought we had put the $250,000. story to bed a long time ago. The original story had Waltz shipping that amount of ore, via Wells Fargo, to the US Mint in Sacramento Calif. As I recall, the claimed document was for a single shipment, not multiple shipments.
The Lost Dutchman was never so called during his lifetime. The first mention of his ever having a lost mine was after his death. His 40 acres of land was not sold for 15 years later. Only a very few people knew where he was buried among them the Petrasch family because he was buried in their burial lot. Herman Petrasch searched for years to try and patch together what Jacob tried to explain to these two young men how to get to it. They afterwards thought he was only fooling them. When evidence later verified the gold shipments via the Wells Fargo XX. Co., it caused a stir and that sir has not ceased yet. It is hard to deny facts when they stare you in the face, and it is none of your business why the old Dutchman did as he did.
There has never been a US Mint in Sacramento. The mints would only accept bullion, not ore. Wells Fargo has no records of anyone shipping ore out of Arizona in Waltz's time. This information came to me directly from an official historian in the Wells Fargo Museum in San Francisco. Prior to speaking to that gentleman, I got the same information from the lady historian in Phoenix.
It would take some serious evidence to convince me otherwise.
One other thing......Waltz could not have shipped anything approaching that worth, without starting the greatest gold rush in Arizona history. That's a huge amount of tonnage of gold ore.
Once settled in Sacramento Dr Ormsby and his brother Maj. William M. founded and operated the first private mint in Sacramento,<snip>
All,
I was wrong about a single shipment. Sorry, I plead old fart syndrome.
Here are my notes from the research done on the $250,000. story:
__________________________________________
I, along with many others have done a bit of research into this subject. Here is some of the results that have been found:
__________________________________________________
Quote:
"The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."
This is an quote from United States Treasure Atlas, Volume 1, Thomas P. Terry PP 59.
_________________________________________________________________
That statement has made the rounds in Dutch Hunting circles for many years before Thomas Terry came along. It has probably been checked out many more times than it has been quoted in a book.
Your first clue should have been when he said: "The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the Us Mint at Sacramento...." First of all, there has never been a U.S. Mint in Sacramento.....that I know of. Next, is the fact that the records he speaks of for Wells Fargo in San Francisco, don't exist. They were destroyed in the Great San Francisco Fire of 1906.
If Terry had taken the time to check his story......like all of the top LDM researchers have, he would have found the same thing they did. That would be zero, nada, zilch. I would be willing to list the authors who have checked out this same exact story.
In this case, using Terry for a source is a total waste of time.
Many researchers have investigated the story of Waltz's ore shipments. When it comes to the LDM, I doubt each and every writer........all of them.
One of the researchers who looked into this part of the legend, was Glenn Magill. These statements can be found on pages 60 and 61 of "The Killer Mountains":
"More frustrating still were his attempts to track down Waltz's ore shipments. According to legend, Waltz and his partner, Jacob Wiser, had shipped more than a quarter of a million dollars' worth of gold to the San Francisco Mint from various points in Arizona Territory, including Phoenix, Florence, Casa Grande, and Pinal.
An even dozen letters were necessary before Magill learned that the appropriate United States Mint ledgers were now stored in the San Francisco Center of the National Archives.
An equal number were necessary before permission was obtained for a San Francisco friend to search them.
The search netted nothing. Except for the names of a few individual ore buyers and some large mines such as the Silver King, shipments were listed mostly under the names of banks, businesses and stage companies. In Waltz's time, when a man cashed in his gold, the common practice was to sell it to an ore buyer or to a stage line, in this case Wells Fargo.
An inquiry to the History Room of Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco brought the information that the old stage records no longer existed."........Destroyed by the 1906 fire?
For anyone contemplating a trip to San Francisco, I would suggest that you first read:
"Fools' Gold" by Robert Sikorsky. Page 4 lists "Acknowledgements". On the list is this:
"The Wells Fargo Bank, History Room, San Francisco; University of Heidelberg, Records Division; General Services Administration, National Archives, Federal Records Centers at Denver, San Francisco and Washington, D. C.; United States Mint, Office of the Director, Washington, D. C.; A. L. Flagg Foundation, Phoenix.
While I am not vouching for the veracity of Mr. Sikorsky's "facts", there is no doubt that he at least looked up the locations that would house the records we are discussing and, he states no records were found linking Jacob Waltz to any gold shipments to San Francisco.
On pages 122 and 123, he gives the names of the people he talked to.
That makes two researcher into the legend that, pretty much, come up with the same story. I believe more could be found. Magill was trying to find any evidence that would support the LDM legend. As a Private Detective, I would imagine he did a pretty thorough job of it.
I doubt the truthfulness of Magill and Sikorsky, as well as all of the other books that have been written. You can see that you are in good company here.
The $254,000 ore shipments story has been around a long time. It has been checked out seven ways from Sunday by some of the best LDM researchers in the business. They checked Wells Fargo, the different U.S. Mints and archives and even looked for a U.S. Mint in Sacramento. It has been proven without any basis over and over again.
The last person I asked about it was Dr. Thomas Glover. Same searches, same results. I hold the man's research abilities second to none, and I know some pretty good hands.
I received this, this morning:
Hi, Joe,
Alas, we do not have any records of ore shipments from Arizona. All such remained the property of the shipping office, and have disappeared over the years.
Regards,
Dr. Robert J. Chandler
Senior Research Historian
Historical Services, A0101-106
Wells Fargo Bank
420 Montgomery Street
San Francisco, CA 94163-2921
Dr. Chandler gave me a call today. We probably talked for 20 or 30 minutes. I was like a kid in a candy store. Here was a man who really knew the history of the times and exactly what role Wells Fargo played in that story. I took notes. Came away from that conversation with a bit more knowledge than I started it with. Lucky day for me.
Just some of the exchanges on this matter. There are even more reasons to support this being a false story.
__________________________________________
Believe I left the story at that point.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Roy,
"Still say that it COULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED?"
Did I actually write that?
From what I know, Wells Fargo did not haul any ORE until the railroad came through. You might want to check on that.From what I understand, WF did not actually haul freight in Arizona. They contracted all of their shipments to other stage lines.
Take care,
Joe
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...-wells-fargo-250k-malarkey-2.html#post4074592One other thing......Waltz could not have shipped anything approaching that worth, without starting the greatest gold rush in Arizona history. That's a huge amount of tonnage of gold ore.
You see Eric I should not have let you hold my nuggets. You will never be happy again
I sorry but was there more than gold in the candle box. The Dutchmans life savings was $4000 in gold was it not. Someone ran off with that not leaving enough to bury him. Sad ending for a millionaire
And he was not the only one: Henry Wickenburg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Still say that it COULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED?"
Could has nothing to do with it. Could there be a toaster orbiting Neptune? Simply not supported by the evidence.
View attachment 1017326
Are you claiming that a toaster is orbiting Neptune? What does that have to do with the Wells Fargo story? Please stick to the topic of your thread.