The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

Oroblanco

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Cubfan wrote
Roy - I will look into reading Miles' autobiography, but I've got a bunch of other books in line first. I'm hesitant about the prospect of reading biographies as I feel by definition they give a skewed view of a person's life - it's one of the reasons I've never read Crook's autobiography either.


I understand - much the same reasons why I prefer to stick to primary sources when possible, rather than modern authors. A person writing their own story will not have an unbiased view. Unfortunately nearly all historians are impressing their own stamp on the events they are writing of.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised to read Miles own words, for instance he does talk about Lt Gatewood and his contribution, perhaps not granting enough credit but then perhaps Gatewood's contributions have been over-credited by other sources? Miles does not attempt to steal all the credit from Crook either, and states how impressed he was with Geronimo as a man. The incident in which Geronimo is shown the heliograph is also interesting, as Miles put it, similar to the introduction of the telegraph to the plains Indians and seen as spirits or power rather than technology.

Last point here but while there was a lot of hard feelings over Crook being replaced as commander in Arizona, most forget that Crook had in fact requested to be relieved of his command. As to his reasons, we can only surmise but the fact that he was taking the blame for the Apaches escaping from the reservation and in effect breaking their trust with him, might have been a big factor. This was also a major factor in Miles pushing for the Apaches to be exiled out of the southwest, and Florida was not his idea, but accomplished the effect of breaking the cycle of treaties and warfare.

Please do continue. :thumbsup:

:coffee2: :coffee2::coffee2:

 

Cubfan64

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Cubfan wrote


I understand - much the same reasons why I prefer to stick to primary sources when possible, rather than modern authors. A person writing their own story will not have an unbiased view. Unfortunately nearly all historians are impressing their own stamp on the events they are writing of.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised to read Miles own words, for instance he does talk about Lt Gatewood and his contribution, perhaps not granting enough credit but then perhaps Gatewood's contributions have been over-credited by other sources? Miles does not attempt to steal all the credit from Crook either, and states how impressed he was with Geronimo as a man. The incident in which Geronimo is shown the heliograph is also interesting, as Miles put it, similar to the introduction of the telegraph to the plains Indians and seen as spirits or power rather than technology.

Last point here but while there was a lot of hard feelings over Crook being replaced as commander in Arizona, most forget that Crook had in fact requested to be relieved of his command. As to his reasons, we can only surmise but the fact that he was taking the blame for the Apaches escaping from the reservation and in effect breaking their trust with him, might have been a big factor. This was also a major factor in Miles pushing for the Apaches to be exiled out of the southwest, and Florida was not his idea, but accomplished the effect of breaking the cycle of treaties and warfare.

Please do continue. :thumbsup:

:coffee2: :coffee2::coffee2:


Hi again Roy,

Yeah, I've read a number of primary sources about those last months of battle between when Crook met with the Chiricauha at Canyon de los Embudos and when the last (other than the few renegades who never came in and remained wild in Mexico) of their number boarded the train to Florida, and honestly they all have to be read with a grain of salt because the writers inevitably had their own slant. For example, Bourke wrote extensively but he appears to have had a great deal of respect for Crook so his works are skewed in that direction, while Leonard Wood who spent time with Lawton's campaign was decidedly in the Nelson Miles "camp."

I guess you have to read all of them and come to your own conclusion. I still have more to read - of that I'm sure.

As to Crook requesting to be relieved, you're absolutely correct. I think it was a matter of pride for him to resign rather than be pushed out of the position which I'm sure would have happened. It had to have pissed off Sheridan and everyone in Washington when Crook notified them that he was coming in with all the Chiricahua and at the last minute, Geronimo bolted once again with a small contingent of "hostiles." That was an utter embarrassment to everyone on the Anglo side and Crook had to know how that was going to play in AZ and NM once it became public. He was already persona non grata with most of the media and populace who thought he coddled the Apache.
 

cactusjumper

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Hi again Roy,

Yeah, I've read a number of primary sources about those last months of battle between when Crook met with the Chiricauha at Canyon de los Embudos and when the last (other than the few renegades who never came in and remained wild in Mexico) of their number boarded the train to Florida, and honestly they all have to be read with a grain of salt because the writers inevitably had their own slant. For example, Bourke wrote extensively but he appears to have had a great deal of respect for Crook so his works are skewed in that direction, while Leonard Wood who spent time with Lawton's campaign was decidedly in the Nelson Miles "camp."

I guess you have to read all of them and come to your own conclusion. I still have more to read - of that I'm sure.

As to Crook requesting to be relieved, you're absolutely correct. I think it was a matter of pride for him to resign rather than be pushed out of the position which I'm sure would have happened. It had to have pissed off Sheridan and everyone in Washington when Crook notified them that he was coming in with all the Chiricahua and at the last minute, Geronimo bolted once again with a small contingent of "hostiles." That was an utter embarrassment to everyone on the Anglo side and Crook had to know how that was going to play in AZ and NM once it became public. He was already persona non grata with most of the media and populace who thought he coddled the Apache.

Paul,

Hope all is well with you folks.

Couldn't agree with you more.:icon_thumright: Fascinating bit of history with lots of research material out there. I've spent a great deal of money acquiring all I could afford on the subject, as I prefer to have those books on hand. There are works from both sides of the subject and all are worth considering. You will need a pretty good bankroll, unless you have access to a really good library. I would assume such library's (on the Southwest) would be scarce back there. If there is any way I could be of assistance, I would be happy to do so.

Take care,

Joe
 

Oroblanco

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Paul,

Hope all is well with you folks.

Couldn't agree with you more.:icon_thumright: Fascinating bit of history with lots of research material out there. I've spent a great deal of money acquiring all I could afford on the subject, as I prefer to have those books on hand. There are works from both sides of the subject and all are worth considering. You will need a pretty good bankroll, unless you have access to a really good library. I would assume such library's (on the Southwest) would be scarce back there. If there is any way I could be of assistance, I would be happy to do so.

Take care,

Joe

Nothing to disagree with in either post, just for our members here that do NOT have access to a good library (or a great personal library like Joe has) what we are discussing is available to you. I have had great success with our local Edgemont library, via the interlibrary loan system (have obtained books which are so rare that only six copies exist in the world for one example) and other small town libraries like Pearce (AZ) Newcastle (WY) and even Nicholson (PA). So if you can not afford some of these rare books, give your local libraries a try, and also local historical societies, which very often have their own extensive libraries of rare books and manuscripts.

A quick search online turned up that at least one volume of General Miles autobiography IS available online at Google books, you can read the actual official messages exchanged that led to Crook being replaced by Miles to wind up the final Apache campaign. The linkee is;
https://books.google.com/books?id=6...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Geronimo also wrote an autobiography, which at least one edition is likewise available on Google books:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Q7BGAAAAIAAJ&dq=geronimo&pg=PR2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Of course these are autobiographies, and must be read with that in mind but as others stated, even histories written by non-participants, are almost always 'colored' by the authors.

The books mentioned by Cubfan may also be available, at least two of Bourke's works are on Google books (free, just my kind of price) here are linkees:
https://books.google.com/books?id=H... border with crook&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=2... border with crook&pg=PP3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Wood's journal is not online but is available via book sellers at a reasonable price.

One thing that seems to have been lost over the past century was that while the Apaches were greatly feared and hated by the American settlers, miners etc, the Apaches did not have the same level of hatred toward the Americans. Certainly not on the same level that they hated Mexicans, perhaps with good reasons for some of the more brutal incidents of the Apache-Mexican conflict?

To tie this in with our topic, it is also notable that at no point do we find Geronimo and his band utilizing the Superstition mountain range as a base or refuge, not even the eastern end of the range which did have some use by Apaches sporadically. This does not prove that Geronimo never entered the Superstitions, however it does raise some concerns over some of the legends associated with the Superstitions involving Geronimo.

Please do continue;
:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Injunbro

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Here's hoping InjunBro returns.
-Weekender


I'm here & happy to engage in any decent conversation. Just no longer tolerant of the insults of a man who spent his life bumming around & chasing a 14 year-old girl when he was 40+... who also admitted to sleeping w/ a burro.
 

azdave35

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I'm here & happy to engage in any decent conversation. Just no longer tolerant of the insults of a man who spent his life bumming around & chasing a 14 year-old girl when he was 40+... who also admitted to sleeping w/ a burro.

lol...he was just funning...you didnt have to reply...he messes with all of us...no need to beat up on a 93 year old man
 

Injunbro

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lol...he was just funning...you didnt have to reply...he messes with all of us...no need to beat up on a 93 year old man


He probably was funning about the burro part but was dating the 14 year-old girl in his 40's, she was 17, he was 44 when they married. I don't need to reply to you anymore either.
 

cactusjumper

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He probably was funning about the burro part but was dating the 14 year-old girl in his 40's, she was 17, he was 44 when they married. I don't need to reply to you anymore either.

Injunbro,

He did wait until she was 17 to marry her. I wouldn't be so quick to judge when you don't really know what took place. Things are different in Mexico. My grandmother was an "arranged" marriage, probably at a very young age. She was in Sicily. What the circumstances were, concerning Don Jose's marriage, I would never question. If her father or brothers did not kill him, who are we to condemn him?

Plenty of causes and wrongs to go around here. IMHO, you should pick something else to fight over.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

azdave35

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He probably was funning about the burro part but was dating the 14 year-old girl in his 40's, she was 17, he was 44 when they married. I don't need to reply to you anymore either.

correctamundo...you don't have to reply to me ....i thought you gathered up your marbles and went home a couple days ago.....i guess you just couldn't stay away
 

azdave35

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He probably was funning about the burro part but was dating the 14 year-old girl in his 40's, she was 17, he was 44 when they married. I don't need to reply to you anymore either.

sounds like they have enjoyed a long and happy marriage ....i dont see anything wrong with that...besides...didn't the apache steal 10 year old white women and have their way with them?
 

azdave35

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Notice how this bunch always wanders away from the subject of the thread? I'd be happy to discuss the subject but bored senseless by the little girls pattycake club, name calling, etc..

lol...most of the threats and name calling came from your camp.....quite a few guys on here like your post's..(including me).. continue posting and stop taking the forum so serious
 

cactusjumper

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Injunbro,

I was enjoying your posts, until you decided to be led away from the subject. I would be more than happy to discuss the Apache of the Southwest.

Please continue,

Joe
 

nobodie

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I call it little girls slap fight. Some discussions need to be taken seriously, a lot of people were killed during that period of time. And it can be a touchy subject. Now for all of us with a sense of humor, a joke. A doctor was in his office with a patient, he says to the patient. I have some bad news and some worse news, the bad news is that you only have 24 hours to live. The patient says 24 hours to live, what could be worse than that? The doctor says, I forgot to call you yesterday. Now if we are done with the jokes lets get back to a serious discussion. Thank you, no applause, just send money.
 

nobodie

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I like this thread. I can't add to it but I enjoy reading the good discussion about history.
 

Oroblanco

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Not to derail this further, but just wanted to point out that Geronimo stated in his autobiography how relentless the US troops were in pursuing him and capturing his camp repeatedly, after Miles became commander, and also Geronimo made NO mention of Lt Gatewood. If Gatewood's actions were so key to the surrender, you might expect that Geronimo at least would have mentioned him.

Please do continue, hoping the quarrel is over as this could be a most interesting thread.

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2: :coffee2:
 

OP
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Uh IPUK? The US also saved your bacon during WWI war when both sides were stalled & unable to do anything offensive anymore. If we'd just let you Europeans fight among yourselves WWII wouldn't have happened since everyone involved would have been too weakened to start another. A bonehead by the name of Woodrow Wilson thought we should get involved in a war we could ill afford for some reason of his own, it was known here as 'Wilsons War', many of our soldiers were never paid their entitled bonus. The debt incurred by the war contributed to the Great Depression.... but what does that have to do w/ Apaches in the SW?

I did not start mentioning WW2 - it was in response to a silly comment made by an ignorant fool...


IPUK

PS. Hope your still visiting this thread...
 

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