1789 Half Reale Update: Third Known Specimen?

[West Jersey Detecting]

Last summer I found a 1789 half reale with a scarce Guatemala City mintmark. It turns out it was a "transitional" coin due to the passing of the crown from Carolvs III to Carolvs IV. As luck would have it, my coin is has a counterpunched IV over III. Here is the coin:



I was able to find out little about the coin other than what was posted in the original thread (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=336317.0) showing Krause's price guide.



Other than knowing it was somewhat scarce or rare there was very little further info available. From time to time I have searched online, and even went to the coin show in Philly with no further info and apparently little interest from dealers or auction houses in researching it.

Last night I finally came across info online showing mintage quantities, and here is what I discovered.



I am amazed at how little interest there is for a coin of this rarity, mine being the third known specimen to exist? Especially when you look at a 1916D Mercury Dime, which there were more than 200,000 minted!

 

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[MKnTenn]

Great research! The old saying supply and demand hold true for your coin. If as many people collected Half Reales as they did Mercury dimes that coin would be worth a ton! I have had that apply to some stuff I have found over the years, if there is no demand you can have a one of a kind and it still only have a minimal value. Way cool and rare coin anyway. HH

 

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[Silver Searcher]

The Reale with its stamp mark are a bit more expensive than normal .... do not pay much attention to the catalogs, each coin has a different value for each coin is different.
its coin is increased by at least 15% of its appraised value.
H

Couldn't agree with you more, a catalogues price is mealy a guide line, each coin has to be treated differently..a coin is worth only what some one, is willing to pay.

SS

 

[Hunthicks]

See, if I was a collector with $$, that's what would interest me! The hole and counterstamp just add to the history of the coin!

 

[Rick (Nova Scotia)]

As Don in SJ and MKn Tenn have said it's all supply, and demand.
The comparison to the 1916 10¢ is a good one, there are many.
No doubt not many collectors, at least for a date or variety set of those.

For a lousy hundred bucks or so, I would not sell it.
It's a great piece to have in YOUR collection. (not to mention / consider you found it)

I like counter stamps, when / if you find out more, I'd like to know about it.

 

[Iron Patch]

Neil! I did that leg work last year, I contacted a Half Real buyer/seller(currently working on a reference for the Bust varieties) and here was his reply that I posted in your original post:

Hi Don

Thanks for writing with the interesting coin.

It is a Guatemala 1/2 real from 1789 a transitional year. The old kind Charles III died that year and mintage began at the Guatemala mint before word of the death arrived. Instead of preparing new dies, the new king's ordinal, IV, was punched over the old one. The bust is still Charles III though.

The piece is rather scarce, that's why it is not priced in Krause. I have seen about 5 or six examples, the latest was a nice midgrade example that sold for $150 in early July at a Spanish auction. The hole is a problem, greatly reducing the value, but the countermark is interesting. I have not been able to find exactly what the countermark is, and that could be very positive in regards to value. If the countermark proves to be rare, coupled with a low denomination, scarce host coin, it could be worth a little something. But I can't ultimately tell without doing more research on the mark.

I hope that helps; thanks for sharing.
Doug

I also just had contact from a counterstamped coin collector who would be interested in the coin, he considers a coin that is now counterstamped more a token than a coin for collections, but anyway, if you are interested in talking to him, I could give you his addy privately.

There is not a big demand for Spanish silver, especially Half Real coinage, so value will never be anything near other coins with low mintage.

Don

I agree. There's no question it's a very cool detecting find and if mine would be among my favorite Spanish silver, but the reality is.... There's not enough demand to drive the price even considering it is a scarce coin, plus the hole and stamp are negatives in a coin collector's eye. That leaves the token buyers but is a non starter for them if it can't be ID'ed, and there is MANY unattributed stamped coins/tokens out there. So it's quite ironic that what makes this find so neat actually hurts it too because in a way it's in a collector's no man's land. I think as the coin is posted today with what's known (in this case not known) about the stamp, the segment of collectors who would probably have the most interest is us, the diggers! ID the stamp and things could greatly change but that's how I see it now.

 

[ColonialDude]

Looks like a keeper to me Neil! Nice find!

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Neil! I did that leg work last year, I contacted a Half Real buyer/seller(currently working on a reference for the Bust varieties) and here was his reply that I posted in your original post:

Hi Don

Thanks for writing with the interesting coin.

It is a Guatemala 1/2 real from 1789 a transitional year. The old kind Charles III died that year and mintage began at the Guatemala mint before word of the death arrived. Instead of preparing new dies, the new king's ordinal, IV, was punched over the old one. The bust is still Charles III though.

The piece is rather scarce, that's why it is not priced in Krause. I have seen about 5 or six examples, the latest was a nice midgrade example that sold for $150 in early July at a Spanish auction. The hole is a problem, greatly reducing the value, but the countermark is interesting. I have not been able to find exactly what the countermark is, and that could be very positive in regards to value. If the countermark proves to be rare, coupled with a low denomination, scarce host coin, it could be worth a little something. But I can't ultimately tell without doing more research on the mark.

I hope that helps; thanks for sharing.
Doug

I also just had contact from a counterstamped coin collector who would be interested in the coin, he considers a coin that is now counterstamped more a token than a coin for collections, but anyway, if you are interested in talking to him, I could give you his addy privately.

There is not a big demand for Spanish silver, especially Half Real coinage, so value will never be anything near other coins with low mintage.

Don

I agree. There's no question it's a very cool detecting find and if mine would be among my favorite Spanish silver, but the reality is.... There's not enough demand to drive the price even considering it is a scarce coin, plus the hole and stamp are negatives in a coin collector's eye. That leaves the token buyers but is a non starter for them if it can't be ID'ed, and there is MANY unattributed stamped coins/tokens out there. So it's quite ironic that what makes this find so neat actually hurts it too because in a way it's in a collector's no man's land. I think as the coin is posted today with what's known (in this case not known) about the stamp, the segment of collectors who would probably have the most interest is us, the diggers! ID the stamp and things could greatly change but that's how I see it now.

Thanks for the input, IP, and thanks to both you and Don who were a big help last summer getting the initial ID on the coin!

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Just a guess but i think the coin has been in the ------well In 1541, St. Ignatius of Loyola adopted IHS as his seal as General of the military Society of Jesus. It is still central to the emblem of this Roman Catholic Jesuit order........

 

[SouthJerseyRyan]

Neil, nice find!

 

[Iron Patch]

Just a guess but i think the coin has been in the ------well In 1541, St. Ignatius of Loyola adopted IHS as his seal as General of the military Society of Jesus. It is still central to the emblem of this Roman Catholic Jesuit order........

You know I would definitely follow that lead considering there doesn't really seem to be anywhere else to go at this point. I actually owned a French Douzain that had an IHS countermark. It was too small to be the same as here, but could have been others.

This is similar to what I had.

 

[Ia.FurTrade]

Just a guess but i think the coin has been in the ------well In 1541, St. Ignatius of Loyola adopted IHS as his seal as General of the military Society of Jesus. It is still central to the emblem of this Roman Catholic Jesuit order........

You know I would definitely follow that lead considering there doesn't really seem to be anywhere else to go at this point. I actually owned a French Douzain that had an IHS countermark. It was too small to be the same as here, but could have been others.

This is similar to what I had.

Could also possibly be the mark of a Montreal silversmith. ( Fur-trade era.)

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

A closer look...

 

[Iron Patch]

A closer look...

I certainly see a case for an "I" there.

 

[XPress2]

Wow... That is some luck you had...

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Wow... That is some luck you had...

It is kind of funny that although my buddies dig a lot more coins than I do, mine more often tend to be scarce varieties...Repunched dates, rotated dies and other oddities!

 

[CRUSADER]

A closer look...

WOW - that 'S' is a snake with its tongue sticking out - wonder what that means??

 

[underarock]

Get it verified so you can get on the banner.
I think you have an extraordinary find there sir.

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

A closer look...

WOW - that 'S' is a snake with its tongue sticking out - wonder what that means??

Hmmmm. An interesting observation. I will need to get out my loupe to see if this is just a random scratch, but you appear to be on to something!

 

[CRUSADER]

A closer look...

WOW - that 'S' is a snake with its tongue sticking out - wonder what that means??

Hmmmm. An interesting observation. I will need to get out my loupe to see if this is just a random scratch, but you appear to be on to something!

Its all there, the eye,mouth & raised tongue (no scratch) winding up to the top right corner.

 

[Iron Patch]

A closer look...

WOW - that 'S' is a snake with its tongue sticking out - wonder what that means??

Hmmmm. An interesting observation. I will need to get out my loupe to see if this is just a random scratch, but you appear to be on to something!

I very much doubt it's a Snake's head. The eye is obviously discoloration, the mouth is likely a cut, and the "tongue" goes up and down, which doesn't make sense.