1789 Half Reale Update: Third Known Specimen?

[West Jersey Detecting]

Last summer I found a 1789 half reale with a scarce Guatemala City mintmark. It turns out it was a "transitional" coin due to the passing of the crown from Carolvs III to Carolvs IV. As luck would have it, my coin is has a counterpunched IV over III. Here is the coin:



I was able to find out little about the coin other than what was posted in the original thread (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=336317.0) showing Krause's price guide.



Other than knowing it was somewhat scarce or rare there was very little further info available. From time to time I have searched online, and even went to the coin show in Philly with no further info and apparently little interest from dealers or auction houses in researching it.

Last night I finally came across info online showing mintage quantities, and here is what I discovered.



I am amazed at how little interest there is for a coin of this rarity, mine being the third known specimen to exist? Especially when you look at a 1916D Mercury Dime, which there were more than 200,000 minted!

 

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[Iron Patch]

PS: So is that also a snake on the top of the "H"? Same idea, just a little smaller.

 

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[CRUSADER]

A closer look...

WOW - that 'S' is a snake with its tongue sticking out - wonder what that means??

Hmmmm. An interesting observation. I will need to get out my loupe to see if this is just a random scratch, but you appear to be on to something!

I very much doubt it's a Snake's head. The eye is obviously discoloration, the mouth is likely a cut, and the "tongue" goes up and down, which doesn't make sense.

What is wrong with a snake with 2 tongues when you get Lions with 2 tails?

 

[Iron Patch]

A closer look...

WOW - that 'S' is a snake with its tongue sticking out - wonder what that means??

Hmmmm. An interesting observation. I will need to get out my loupe to see if this is just a random scratch, but you appear to be on to something!

I very much doubt it's a Snake's head. The eye is obviously discoloration, the mouth is likely a cut, and the "tongue" goes up and down, which doesn't make sense.

What is wrong with a snake with 2 tongues when you get Lions with 2 tails?

Not a thing wrong with it. I'm all for equal rights for lion tails and snake tongues.

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

A closer look...

WOW - that 'S' is a snake with its tongue sticking out - wonder what that means??

Hmmmm. An interesting observation. I will need to get out my loupe to see if this is just a random scratch, but you appear to be on to something!

I very much doubt it's a Snake's head. The eye is obviously discoloration, the mouth is likely a cut, and the "tongue" goes up and down, which doesn't make sense.

Agreed. After looking with a high powered loupe it appears to be scratched and environmental damage. Besides the fact that the counterstamp is a tiny one and a snake emblem would be nearly invisible to the naked eye on such a small coin. I doubt anyone would bother to put that kind of detail on such a small stamp.

Some other people made an observation that it may be HSP, as you can see what may have been the outline of a third letter, but I think I can make out the right edge of the stamp after the S.

 

[Don in SJ]

There is nothing there but HS, the "engrailed edge" of the cartouche and the centering of the letters in the cartouche convinced me it is only those two letter.

Don

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

There is nothing there but HS, the "engrailed edge" of the cartouche and the centering of the letters in the cartouche convinced me it is only those two letter.

Don

Snake? Still not convinced...but you never know! I was a little concerned that there appears to be something on the "H" of the coin that was not there last year it turned out to be dust.......

Two last photos:

 

[CRUSADER]

There is nothing there but HS, the "engrailed edge" of the cartouche and the centering of the letters in the cartouche convinced me it is only those two letter.

Don

Snake? Still not convinced...but you never know! Two last photos:

maybe not

 

[Don in SJ]

I am referring to any additional letters, nope, no additional letters, nothing but HS ssssssssssssss

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

I am referring to any additional letters, nope, no additional letters, nothing but HS ssssssssssssss

 

[Don in SJ]

Crusader, the one knowledgeable collector/seller I talked to(a TNet Sponser btw) said the HS is still and unknown mark, however the cartouche it is in is known as a "engrailed border type" and he recognizes those to be of Caribbean Island sources! So I tried to find another engrailed border type but did not find any so if anybody comes across one, see if there are any similarities I suppose

 

[leddel]

hey Neil my detecting buddy found a very worn 1 reale with a counterstamp similar to yours but the letters were different (RF) for Robert Fairchild and we found out it was a silver smith . he put his mark on it to authenticate it was still good silver (as i said the coin was worn but the counterstamp was not ) , maybe yours (because of the counter punched area ) looked like it could have been a counterfiet so a silversmith stamped his mark to assure its quality.

Dan

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

hey Neil my detecting buddy found a very worn 1 reale with a counterstamp similar to yours but the letters were different (RF) for Robert Fairchild and we found out it was a silver smith . he put his mark on it to authenticate it was still good silver (as i said the coin was worn but the counterstamp was not ) , maybe yours (because of the counter punched area ) looked like it could have been a counterfiet so a silversmith stamped his mark to assure its quality.

Dan

Thanks Dan,

Here is his hallmark.

Can you post a photo of your friend's coin?

 

[leddel]

i'll be at his house tomarro and i'll snap a few shots Neil , but its basically a smooth silver disc with the stamp.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Isn't the counterstamp E I S just with the I very close to the E

SS

 

[leddel]

hey Neil heres a shot of the front of my buddy's 1 reale , its almost worn smooth but we can tell its a mid-1700's (pillars type) reale and the stamp looks like a cross between the two stamps of Robert Fairchild the one you posted (its border kartouche outline ) and the this one (just the letters) .

Dan

 

[DirtMan1]

Heck yeah Son, that's a terrific Find!

 

[CRUSADER]

hey Neil heres a shot of the front of my buddy's 1 reale , its almost worn smooth but we can tell its a mid-1700's (pillars type) reale and the stamp looks like a cross between the two stamps of Robert Fairchild the one you posted (its border kartouche outline ) and the this one (just the letters) .

Dan

Who thinks or why did he have 2 boarders, they were as important as the letters & were registered in a way that no-one would copy & would show it's individuality. No point having two individual marks? Makes no sense at all. (you can't register 2 marks for the same person as far as I'm aware, unless you can explain why this happened?)

Therefore these are different people's makers marks with the same initials.

 

[Don in SJ]

Who thinks or why did he have 2 boarders, they were as important as the letters & were registered in a way that no-one would copy & would show it's individuality. No point having two individual marks? Makes no sense at all. (you can't register 2 marks for the same person as far as I'm aware, unless you can explain why this happened?)

Therefore these are different people's makers marks with the same initials.

Agree 100% with Cru, there is only one mark per individual. Here is an excerpt of a reply I received from a knowledgeable collector concerning Neil's counterstamp.

Because it is a crenellated
cartouche style punch, it might be listed in the archives of the trade
union of the smith involved. The trade unions were very strict with their
authorizations of marks( in the UK anyway). Someone that had served his
apprenticeship and passed his journeyman's tests, and was accepted as such
would be told what his mark was to look like, so that it could be easily
distinguished from another similar mark.
It would not help, in the case of disputes over fineness or cost, or? to
have 2 different silversmith's having a similar let alone the same mark.

Don

 

[Iron Patch]

Who thinks or why did he have 2 boarders, they were as important as the letters & were registered in a way that no-one would copy & would show it's individuality. No point having two individual marks? Makes no sense at all. (you can't register 2 marks for the same person as far as I'm aware, unless you can explain why this happened?)

Therefore these are different people's makers marks with the same initials.

Agree 100% with Cru, there is only one mark per individual. Here is an excerpt of a reply I received from a knowledgeable collector concerning Neil's counterstamp.

Because it is a crenellated
cartouche style punch, it might be listed in the archives of the trade
union of the smith involved. The trade unions were very strict with their
authorizations of marks( in the UK anyway). Someone that had served his
apprenticeship and passed his journeyman's tests, and was accepted as such
would be told what his mark was to look like, so that it could be easily
distinguished from another similar mark.
It would not help, in the case of disputes over fineness or cost, or? to
have 2 different silversmith's having a similar let alone the same mark.

Don

But also remember a father and son could have had different but very similar marks for the same business. I am quite sure I have run into that researching silver spoons. He said "silversmith" so I assume it was the same trade union.

 

[leddel]

hey Neil heres a shot of the front of my buddy's 1 reale , its almost worn smooth but we can tell its a mid-1700's (pillars type) reale and the stamp looks like a cross between the two stamps of Robert Fairchild the one you posted (its border kartouche outline ) and the this one (just the letters) .

Dan

Who thinks or why did he have 2 boarders, they were as important as the letters & were registered in a way that no-one would copy & would show it's individuality. No point having two individual marks? Makes no sense at all. (you can't register 2 marks for the same person as far as I'm aware, unless you can explain why this happened?)

Therefore these are different people's makers marks with the same initials.

Who thinks or why did he have 2 boarders, they were as important as the letters & were registered in a way that no-one would copy & would show it's individuality. No point having two individual marks? Makes no sense at all. (you can't register 2 marks for the same person as far as I'm aware, unless you can explain why this happened?)

Therefore these are different people's makers marks with the same initials.

Agree 100% with Cru, there is only one mark per individual. Here is an excerpt of a reply I received from a knowledgeable collector concerning Neil's counterstamp.

Because it is a crenellated
cartouche style punch, it might be listed in the archives of the trade
union of the smith involved. The trade unions were very strict with their
authorizations of marks( in the UK anyway). Someone that had served his
apprenticeship and passed his journeyman's tests, and was accepted as such
would be told what his mark was to look like, so that it could be easily
distinguished from another similar mark.
It would not help, in the case of disputes over fineness or cost, or? to
have 2 different silversmith's having a similar let alone the same mark.

Don

great questions gentlemen , i just took the other stamp from the bio page of the man is all . heres the link
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~silversmiths/makers/silversmiths/56220.htm

if you look to the lower right on the page you'll see "alternate mark"

Dan