A few questions

[relix]

I'm glad to see a gathering point for artifact hunters first of all. I have been in the hobby , or obsession might I say, for about 15 years now. Most of the hunting I do is in Virginia and Tennessee. I have found a few things which I am not quite sure what they are. I am fairly illiterate when it comes to computers. I would post some pictures on here of some of the things I have found, but my lack of ability leaves me hindered haha. Alright, a question about stone artifacts first. An argument I have ran into among local hunters has to do with hafted scrapers and blunts. Some of the pieces are hard to distinguish. Is there really a definate way to tell the two apart? Any help with that question would be appreciated. It also is a pet peave of mine when ' archeologists' claim we shouldn't disturb artifacts from their natural state. I have no degree at all in this field, yet I have gained valuable information by being in the field. Observation and participation is the key to knowledge. Text books do not make a person qualified. I have uncovered something that has helped me discover several Mississippian Era sites. To my knowledge, this has never been discussed or printed. After dealing with a few of these sites, I made the link. The link between them all was so obvious. I can now visually look at a site and tell that it was a Mississippian Era site with 100% accuracy. I am glad to be among others that share this same obsession. I am glad to now be a part of this community and look forward to talking with you all in the future. - relix

 

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[Rege-PA]

Hi Relix and welcome to the forum. Look forward to sharing insights and ideas with you as to site determination and traits.

 

[Rege-PA]

Relix...just reread your post on the question of hafted scrapers and blunts. In my opinion blunts are really hafted scrapers. When you consider the amount of hides to be processed for clothing etc and there is some evidence as to a large wood working aspect for bowls, dug out canoes, spears,arrows etc. A hafted scraper can generate much more force and control when working on an object. The shapes of these items vary from straight across to very rounded, the rounded ones seem to suggest hide scraping so as not to tear the fibers but scraping out a wooden bowl would also work, those more straight across seem to suggest a gouge or chisel. I don`t think these rounded scrapers were ever intended to stun animals, even in their rounded shape tissue damage and some penetration would happen. A true blunt would have to be of a mushroom shape to spread out the frontal impact and if they ever existed might have been carved from wood. Just my opinion, perhaps others have other views.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I agree 100% with Rege. I have never believed in the whole "Stunner" theory. Why would they want to stun an animal anyway? Also, they would have be one heck of shot with an Atl-Atl to hit an animal somewhere around the temple to stun it or knock it out because if they just hit the body all it would do is make the animal run.

Also, your way of identifying Mississippian/Ft Ancient sites. That wouldn't have anything to do with the large amount a mussel shells in the fields would it? That is the way we ID those types of sites in my area since they always littered with these shells over the entire site. We don't find this trait on our Archaic or Woodland sites, but always do on our Ft Ancient sites.

 

[relix]

I appreciate you all for giving your knowledge. There aren't many people that hunt for artifacts around here, but the people that do are very very secretive. I've spent lots of time going through fields by trial and error. Some fields turned up artifacts while others didn't. Some spots looked like they would definately have some that didn't. Actually, one of the best places I look has no water source within a mile and the terrain is gently rolling. But about that blunt/ hafted scraper, I heard from a couple of old timers that they were used for fish. I believe they were talking about using them on the end of an arrow and using them as such. I don't know about this theory though. There is a certain type of vegetation I have linked between the sites I am talking about. There is a concentrate of this certain type. I noticed after about the third site. After I noticed the link, I was driving to visit family when I noticed a stand of this. I stopped and asked the fellow if he cared if I looked in his garden. Low and behold, I found several tri points and most were Ft. Ancient points. I also found a few pottery sherds, which are usually linked with these sites. I am no expert on pottery types and would love to talk with someone in detail about these. I have found at least 3 different types of pottery and would love to associate a date with these. Again, I appreciate all of your help and I am glad to be a part of your forum. -relix

 

[Rege-PA]

Relix...when you are ready to discuss your findings I will include some of my techniques for locating sites.
I have a general question concerning hafted scrapers, perhaps Dork Fish would be able to add some insight.
Question: Have you ever found a hafted scraper on a Ft Ancient or Mississippian site?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Relix...when you are ready to discuss your findings I will include some of my techniques for locating sites.
I have a general question concerning hafted scrapers, perhaps Dork Fish would be able to add some insight.
Question: Have you ever found a hafted scraper on a Ft Ancient or Mississippian site?

Answer: No, I haven't. As a matter of fact we have one Ft Ancient site, The Goldcamp Site, that we hardly find any scrapers of any kind at all on the site. The ones we do find are usually really crudely made and not your typical nicely made Thumb Scraper type. Now, all of my other Ft Ancient sites that I hunt produce numerous scrapers of all shapes and sizes and one site, The Hardin Village Site, produces what the old timers call Turtleback Scrapers which are flaked on both faces and not your typical uniface scraper with flaking only on one side and the bottom side untouched.

These two pics show some of the Turtlebacks just to the left of the Disc.

 

[Rege-PA]

DorkFish...Thanks for the info, I have not found any on Monong sites either. The few that do show up are on multi component sites from earlier cultures utilizing the same resources at that location. Which brings up the thought that some camps were seasonal utilizing a certain resource such as fish or nuts and only inhabited for short periods of time but over hundreds of years take on the appearance of a village. Getting back to the hafted scrapers, I`m thinking that as pottery and weaving became more refined there was less need for these objects.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Rege, we also find some in close proximity to our Ft Ancient sites, but they are also multicomponent sites and the ones we do find are Archaic or Woodland in culture.

Here is a tray of some of my better Hafted Scrapers. All of the ones in the top and bottom rows of the tray are from the same site which we aptly named the Hafted Scraper Site since about 75% of what we found there was Hafted Scrapers.

 

[Cannonman17]

I'm going to throw out a guess here and say that the high percentage of haft ed scrapers had to do with that particular culture/village/time period/ or whatever you might want to argue having a propensity for the reuse of points. Most whole and/or "prefect" arrowheads, atl atl points, knife blades, etc really aren't found in the camp site proper... people may think so but if you think about it....... picture a small village living on the edge of some long gone river or creek.. they may have hunted a lot but it wouldn't have been right outside the door of their wigwam.. they would have probably gone in search of game up and down that river or creek system in either direction and lost some points hunting... thus we find some perfect points...BUT the majority of what was brought back to the camp would have been "used" and/or broken points. Points that might not have even been fully removed from the carcass in many cases until the animal was butchered. Now a thrifty group of people... specially if they were using the hides to a great degree, would have been processing a lot of hides.... logic would say that litterally one or two minutes with an antler tip can turn this broken atl atl point into a nice usable haft ed scraper for my wife to scrape hides with. I would say that a large number of such artifacts at any given site would be indicative of just such a thing.... perhaps for an extended period of time. I would also predict that as you shy farther and farther from that particular camp site the more and more you percentages of "perfect" points vs. haft ed scrapers (reused broken spear points) would increase. Likewise I think A LOT of confusion in some camp sites, particularly in what is now plowed fields, come from the fact that most fail to consider how times, and camp sites, changed location over time. If you have a camp site for a small or even large group of people at point "X" along the river and this is the best camp site along that river for a hundred or two hundred years (even a small group of people will produce quite a few artifacts over a hundred years) you will find predominately broken and/or used artifacts in that camp site. The more perfect or unused looking projectile points may be more likely to be found a mile or two down stream... until the camp site changes.. now the area where just a generation or two ago most atl atl points were lost hunting is now the main village site and the place where that culture used to camp, point "X", is now fertile hunting grounds (and thus having a fair number of "perfect points" lost in it. The period of time that has elapsed is minimal and the artifacts being found between point X and the next are so similar that it may be impossible to tell any difference. Soooo... if I found a camp site that was heavy with re-utilized broken points I would guess that it was a camp site for a period of time.. probably for quite a while, but for some reason was not an area that was used to hunt a lot of game before or after it was occupied... of course the reasons and implications here are almost limitless but.. perhaps there was some type of change in the ground water level or some other important natural resource the precluded the use of that land for much of anything except that particular period of time when it was being inhabited. Perhaps erosion of one sort or another had played a role... who knows for sure... but the predominance of haft ed scrapers would suggest a camp site for a longer period of time than it was ever used for a hunting grounds.

 

[Rege-PA]

DorkFish...what your reporting seems to add credence to the use of a specific camp site for a special reason, perhaps it had more water, some type of wood or located in some area where it was beneficial to manufacture the article there instead of dragging the raw material back to the main camp and working on it. I believe one of our posters (Pickaway) has a location that is turning up almost exclusively blades that would be later finished into points, he said that this location is between the main camp and the quarry or location of the flint source.

Cannonmans statements about camp locations and the used articles found on the actual campsite is right on the mark, most of the points recovered there will have a higher % of damage, although some nice points will be found inside hut locations that were accidentally lost. I think that sometimes we forget how valuable a nice piece of flint was to these people and how many points show use until exhaustion. I have some notches where the point has been sharpened down until the blade is smaller than the base, a factor that must have severely limited penetration and perhaps caused it to be discarded. Thanks for the info guys, makes for some good reading and adds a small piece into the puzzle of their daily lives.

 

[tomclark]

Hi Relix,

I can identify potential sites along our coasts by looking at the vegetation also. Eastern Red Cedar grows very well on habitation/work sites along the coast here and is usually an indicator. Gumbo Limbo grow ONLY on mounds in my area and southward. Also pinetrees and hardwood trees growing out in the swamps and along the coast indicate sites. What I'm saying is there are definite changes in the soil at many sites from human usage that makes them better or more advantageous for specific species of plants. In some areas, indiginous foods like Ilex and some fruits/roots and staples like coontie can put you on a good area. Shell heaps give it away obviously.
Good posts here.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Cannonman, I See what you are saying and agree with most of it. The thing is, we have two very large and well documented Ft Ancient sites in our area where we find tons of both perfect and damaged Triangles Points and Knives while within the confines of the village itself, but you very rarely find outside of the actual darkened soil of the village site. Both of these village sites were occupied for long periods of time and both were dated around the same time, from around 900 to 1650 AD. Both are situated right along the Ohio River and both have large prominent ridges on the next terrace up from the river where we find absolutely no Triangle Points or Knives at all. Even the fields within a mile or so radius very, very rarely give up a Triangle Point and when they do they are usually of the Levanna type which is a Middle to Late Woodland type and not really associated with Ft Ancient.

I have hunted these fields in my area for 43 years and other than the Ft Ancient villages we rarely find Ft Ancient Triangle Points. Now the ridges I mentioned that are above both village sites are loaded with Archaic and Woodland type points and there is even a Woodland site within 1/4 mile of one of the Villages that is predominately Hopewell in culture. We find all kinds of Archaic pieces on the surrounding ridges and even an occasional Paleo will rear it's head.

I'll show some pics of the items we find on the village sites and the types we find surrounding the village.

The first two pics show artifacts from the Goldcamp Village Site and as you can see from the 2nd picture we do find an occasional Woodland point in the village proper.

The third pic is of the Woodland site that is close to this village.

The next pics are pieces from the surrounding ridges.

 

[Rege-PA]

DorkFish...I think the key to this is the long habitation on the site and probably the size of it. The same thing is true of the Monongs, very little is found outside of the black ring and your right on about the Levanna triangles.
Makes one wonder where all these Ft.Ancient triangles were used, an atlatl hunter maybe carried 5 points, but the Ft. Ancients had quivers full and these people were not new to warfare, so I`m wondering if there was a sort of arms build up at each camp, the introduction of the bow brought many more arrowheads into the equation.

 

[relix]

There is another site I search that I haven't been able to identify. I would say this site is about 1/4 mile away from the river and above the flood plain. The points and blades I find appear to be woodland flaking. Most are very large preforms. I also find finished points and blades. I believe one type to be what is called the Bradley Spike. The other main type I cannnot identify. The points are relatively the same size and overall shape. This point shouldnt be hard to identify. I haven't found this type anywhere else. If one of you could help me learn to post pics on here I would be more than glad to post some pics. I have a digital camera and understand how to upload the pics the my pc. I have no idea how to post them on this site though. I would appreciate any and all help. -Relix

 

[Ohio_Doug]

relix, to post pics scroll down below the message box where it says Add Images , click on browse then go to the folder that you keep your pics in on your computer and upload them, I must say that this is a very interesting thread you started

 

[bruce]

Hello there,

Here some of mine. I like to see a bifacate hafted scraper. Dorkfish
thanks for the expertise you are inspiring me to learn more. Fifth row down and
third from left a hi-lo paleo?

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[relix]

I'm sorry but I've tried to post some pics and it says the files are too large. I have no idea how to make them smaller. I would have loved to have posted some pics though. I was hoping maybe you all could have helped me identified some of my points.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Bruce, I've always considered that one and the one just opposite of it, the third from the right in the same row, as San Patrice or Hardaway varieties.

relix, do a Google search for a Photo Resizer and you can load your photos to it and it will resize them smaller for you. You can also host them on Photobucket.com and I believe it automatically resizes them for you as well. I use FastStone Photo Resizer 1.4