A Horse is a Horse of Course - Ive seen this but cant place it.

[BioProfessor]

A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Spending some time kicking around the EU. Got permission to hunt an old farm in France. Old in France is different than old in the US. The farm land was purchased by a family member who was a surgeon in Charlemagne's Army. The land was farmed then but the first building were constructed in the 12th century. They still serve as the stables and hay lofts. The labor for the farm was provided in Medieval times by locals who were "recruited" by the Monks at a nearby Monastery. There is a Roman road that cuts through the farm and a Roman tunnel that runs under the road and connects two fortresses about 1 Km apart. The farm is about 9Km from Melun, France that served as the main horse depot for the Roman Army.

So, old enough for ya? LOL

I found this quarter sized button behind one of the barns that is a 12th century out-building. I believe it is bronze. The cast line is seen in buttons in Medieval days as well as way before and after.

The problem with the button is that I can't really nail down a date range. The horse also looks VERY familiar. I have looked at images of horses from cave painting to Picasso. Nothing matches. It is so simplistic that I thought it would be easy but just like most IDs, it's not. So any help with IDing the horse and getting a date range would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Daryl

 

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[Dano Sverige]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Livery button worn by a stablehand probably. Horse is a similar style to those cut into the chalk hills of England...although fatter. Might be worth checking out though.

http://tinyurl.com/6f9qt3h

 

[High Plains Digger]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

My first thought was cave horse, also. The white horse of Uffington didn't register well. Dano--I have only seen a couple of the "chalkloglyphs" and I don't know if there are fat horses. Are there?

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

I looked at LOTS of those. They all have "real" legs and this one has only a curved line for a leg. I was trying to use that as something to single out a particular type or style.

It just looks SO familiar. Driving me crazy.

Daryl

 

[Dano Sverige]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

My first thought was cave horse, also. The white horse of Uffington didn't register well. Dano--I have only seen a couple of the "chalkloglyphs" and I don't know if there are fat horses. Are there?

Check the link in my last post lol. But no, most of the chalk horses are the thin "celtic" type. It was just an idea. I think TT's suggestion is closer, with those caves being in France too. I think Jean M Auels "clan of the cave bear" books were inspired and based on those cave paintings there. In fact it was the dust cover of her "valley of horses" book that this button reminded me of come to think of it. The farm/stables may be near one of these caves in France and incorporated a painting as their livery button. Dunno.

http://tinyurl.com/6czy84o

 

[High Plains Digger]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Sorry Dano, I didn't hit the link before I spoke. But the front legs of Uffington is (are?) interestingly close to the subject, eh? Maybe there is a "Uffington" /cave horse hybrid somwhere that inspired this. Imagine, Celtic Cave Men. Maybe Jane will write about those.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Interesting angle. I looked at those horses as well and it was as close as I could find. I think it may be artistic license and I really didn't think about that one.


I am trying to get a bit more magnification and confirm it is scribed in the metal and not part of the casting. That would make the artist very likely to use minimal strokes.

I'm not sure if I can get an age range or not. Not much to go on but the shank and they can be all over the place when they are cast. This one has had some work to make it "nicer" and I am hoping more magnification will show me some file marks.

Daryl

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Interesting angle. I looked at those horses as well and it was as close as I could find. I think it may be artistic license and I really didn't think about that one.


I am trying to get a bit more magnification and confirm it is scribed in the metal and not part of the casting. That would make the artist very likely to use minimal strokes.

I'm not sure if I can get an age range or not. Not much to go on but the shank and they can be all over the place when they are cast. This one has had some work to make it "nicer" and I am hoping more magnification will show me some file marks.

Daryl

Its is an early crude picture of a horse from a circa 1790s tombac button. Seen but not found similar & present in one of my button books.

I consider it a good find. Tombac with hunting scenes or animals are my fav (& popular/rare(ish)) but only ever had a running hare & something else, but can't remember.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

I find a lot of Tombac buttons in the US. They were really popular. I've never found a Tombac with a cast seam on the back. Is that just a US thing?

And the shanks on the Tombacs we find are usually round and attached. Not cast as part of the button.

Is it that Tombacs over here are older and more varied? I know adding arsenic makes them more "white" but all the ones I have found have been more silver looking than brown like copper. So are there copper-based Tombacs that look dark?

And this button is as flat as a coin. Again not the usual Tombac shape.

I'm learning here.

Thanks!

Daryl

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

I find a lot of Tombac buttons in the US. They were really popular. I've never found a Tombac with a cast seam on the back. Is that just a US thing?

And the shanks on the Tombacs we find are usually round and attached. Not cast as part of the button.

Is it that Tombacs over here are older and more varied? I know adding arsenic makes them more "white" but all the ones I have found have been more silver looking than brown like copper. So are there copper-based Tombacs that look dark?

And this button is as flat as a coin. Again not the usual Tombac shape.

I'm learning here.

Thanks!

Daryl

Had lots of variants/mixes in Tombac metal, not sure I've had any with seams either but doesn't mean it isn't a Tombac metal type I said this is tombac, as it looks like it & I have seen that exact image on a tombac. If not the date is still the same.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

I find a lot of Tombac buttons in the US. They were really popular. I've never found a Tombac with a cast seam on the back. Is that just a US thing?

And the shanks on the Tombacs we find are usually round and attached. Not cast as part of the button.

Is it that Tombacs over here are older and more varied? I know adding arsenic makes them more "white" but all the ones I have found have been more silver looking than brown like copper. So are there copper-based Tombacs that look dark?

And this button is as flat as a coin. Again not the usual Tombac shape.

I'm learning here.

Thanks!

Daryl

Had lots of variants/mixes in Tombac metal, not sure I've had any with seams either but doesn't mean it isn't a Tombac metal type I said this is tombac, as it looks like it & I have seen that exact image on a tombac. If not the date is still the same.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,351795.0.html

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Looks like as much of a match as one could find.

Still wondering about the cast shank and the seam with Tombac buttons.

As with most buttons, much of the information about age and stuff is one the back.

I'll ask if he can post a pic of the back.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Looks like as much of a match as one could find.

Still wondering about the cast shank and the seam with Tombac buttons.

As with most buttons, much of the information about age and stuff is one the back.

I'll ask if he can post a pic of the back.

Daryl

I have seen at least 5 of these and some did have a normal shank. So they were probably made in a period where things were changing slightly. Maybe 1760s or 70s.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Under the German section.

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Under the German section.

 

[njguy]

Re: A Horse is a Horse of Course - I've seen this but can't place it.

Perhaps it is Templar Knights related in origin?
In this photo is a man on a horse. This is an image on a wall in a Templar Church/sanctuary(?) called the Commanderie in Marne le-Valle France, assuming of course you don't think its a Bavarian Button.