A Secret in El Paso

[Tom_in_CA]

..... in which you used the word spin. Spin is a form of propaganda and typically, when used, one side of a story is presented while the backstory, the other truth is not......

Well, apply what you're saying about my use of "spin", to my story. Was this guy guilty of being anything less than sincere? No. Was he an eye-witness? Yes. Was there any conspiracy or reasons for him to lie? No. Did he lie? Not in his recollection of the facts. Nor did he have any reason to care or lie in the first place. Could his observations have been picked up by a newspaper reporter? Sure.

So I think you're getting bogged down in minutia definitions, which are leading you on a rabbit trail away from my purposes of that story. I mean, ok then, FORGET the word "spin" if that's not correct. I was trying to illustrate human nature, and how it (with all sincerities and "certain proofs" involved) can go awry.

And just as I pre-foretold: You would find a way to distance your particular story, from the examples of how silly these things can evolve. Ie.: that YOUR particular story is the exception (of course).

...The "treasure" that you are focused on is only a small part of this story. What we should be, what I am concerned with, is the chance of recovering a vault of historical records. ....

As soon as I typed "... treasure..." I actually thought (and should have known better), that that would become the focus of the conversation. Ie.: to do as you did, and distance yourself from going so far as to hope/surmise that there might be "aztec treasure" (gold, etc...) there. I was saying "treasure" to cast a silly light on it, I admit. I'm sure you're very interested in hieroglyphics, architecture, records, etc... that are non "treasure" related. So let's not get "lost in the examples".

... .. As a seasoned treasure hunter, isn't there the tiniest part of your curiosity that hopes for something like the existence of an Aztec treasure?

Ah yes, so there *is* a little (in all of us) hope for treasure I mean, duh, this IS "treasurenet" forum afterall, doh! Why ELSE are we here reading and posting I mean, with all due respects for rocks, foundations, historical knowledge, etc..., for us md'r/treasure hunters, let's be totally honest with ourselves: a little bit of our historical resesarch does hope that we're gonna find old coins, gold, silver, relics, etc..... Not just look at some old indian ruins.

And with that admission on the table, then ....... my stance remains: Treasure legends are a dime-a-dozen. And on the surface, every last one of them is a) bullet-proof iron-clad, and b) the defenders will defend them to the hilt, and not believe or consider anything that dissuades or shows the possibility of other explanations. c) This psychology in-built in us, is the feeling of "not wanting to be left out". So we hold out every last hope, and see every last data point in-the-light of (bias confirmation) pointing in the direction of what we hope for.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Here's an example of confirmation bias:

For 35 yrs. a few buddies and I along the coast here, have studied AD-NASEUM the factors involved in coastal beach erosion, as it pertains to metal detecting. We try our durndest to figure out the combinations of swells, on-shore winds, direction of those two factors, tides, etc.... Ie.: to figure out when to go to the beach looking for erosion, and which beach is most likely to have gotten eroded.

As such, I have various benchmarks by which I promise myself I am NOT going to make the 30 min. to 1 hr. drives to the various beach points. Ie.: It'd have to be NW at 18 ft. or better, with a 6 ft. or more high tide, or I can be certain that a certain beach will stay sanded in. Or another beach I may fish for 5 ft. swells from the south, at 5.5 high tide or better, for 2-or-more back-to-back days of "sustained" ingredients. Etc.. etc.. etc....

However, sure as h*ck, each time a storm comes through, I am, of course, chomping at the bit, studying all the mariner buoy data, charts, beach web cam's, etc... And each time, if the ingredients are lining up as well as I'd like (my "benchmarks"), I routinely talk myself out of it! I end up subconsciously thinking "well, it's still got this factor, and that factor, and ....... ya never know, and I *really* should still check, because that slope or scallop might re-adjust during the subsequent high tide, blah blah blah. And I psyche myself up, CERTAIN that I'm in for a fun day.

Lo & behold, I find the beach sanded in. My kill-joy benchmarks are usually right afterall. But see how much the lure of treasure, up-till-that-time, colored my interpretation of the data? No amount of counter-evidence, or someone waving my own research and articles-on-the-subject, will get me to stay home and do more important honey-do's. Instead I'm rationalizing away the data thinking: "this is it!".

And each time I tell myself "not getting fooled next time into the wild goose chase for the thick-targets beach erosion". Yet, the following year, I do exactly that. Keep trying "just to be sure". Thus is the lure of our hobby. And no amount of counter-persuasion can get us to dismiss the lack-of-likeliness.

 

[Hal Croves]

Tom in CA,

So, I jumped back into the records last night thinking of your posts and found this article which seems to support your conclusions. My question to you would be this...
Would you consider this article to be a form of spin? Why would the author make a point to write about what would be found in a vault that did not exist? I mean, NO vault, no "treasure", no records. Nothing to be found! Why tell the readers that only mundane artifacts would be found? Isnt this spin?

From this, I read that a structure was found, that Mundy (after checking with Diaz and initially approving the work) suddenly had a change of mind. Work was stopped, the site filled in, and that was that. Did Mundy (a respected El Paso ciitizen) learn of Berson's criminal past? It seems possible. Readers are told what to expect in the form of treasure, your hum-drum artifacts, and the story quickly dies. Berson pops up again in Washington D.C. with his wife Ana, who gives birth to their son Leo in 1907.


It seems that Berson returned to Mexico after the work was stopped.

Now, here is something "spin-like" to consider. What if Berson was competent at translating the symbols found on Aztec stones and in reading old Aztec charts? We know that in Mexico, Berson had several successes in archeology, finds that were documented.

I think, and this may be spin, that Berson returned to Mexico, to Yesca in 1902, disguised as an archeologist named Heverick (a corruption of Heverict?).
Again, this is an assumption. Read the article, come to our own conclusions.

Relics of the Aztecs:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...rick&y=16&x=5&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

 

[Hal Croves]

I have made several references to Freemasonry and how, by understanding its roll in Mexican politics, the relationship between President Diaz and H. M. Mundy can be understood. This is from
Nagualism. A Study in Native American Folk-Lore and History


If you want to understand the relationship between Freemasonry in the American South West and the Aztec priest or Nanahualtin, read this work at jstor.
Then read up on the Aztec Club of 1847.
http://www.aztecclub.com/LeadPg.htm

Now, ask yourself if it is at least possible that a successful business man, a Mason and friend of Mexican President Diaz, a man heavily invested in El Paso real estate, a civic leader powerful on both sides of the boarder; isn't it at least possible that Mundy felt obligated, as a Freemason, to protect something so potentially important to Masons? What would have become of Mundy Heights had a temple been found? What if there was a temple ruin but no trace of records or treasure? Mundy heights would today be the called The Temple of the Nanahualtin; a legal and financial disaster for Mundy. Mudy put a stop to the work even after President Diaz encouraged him to move forward. The amount of time that passed between Mudy's approval to excavate and then his order to halt was about a week. Can any archeological dig go from masonry walls with inscriptions, to "nothing to it" in such a short time?

"He was prevented from proceeding with his investigations by the owner of the land..."

"Judging from... treasure WILL consist chiefly of earthen vessels, stone axes, and pieces of turquoise."

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[Tom_in_CA]

Wow, and now a possible masonic freemason connection is brought into it ? The plot thickens! I'm sure all such future "possibilities" could likewise be brought into my example of the sidewalk demolition "treasures" too, 100 yrs. from now, by someone doing as thoroughly their research as you have done here.

This sort of reminds me of the fellows who did some sort of research in the southwest, that pointed to a treasure being in a grave ! Yup, a fallen CW soldier's grave, in some federal cemetary, ... their research led them to believe there was a treasure (instead of a body) in that coffin! Now if you ask me, that sounds like the plot of the Spaghetti Western "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" (Clint Eastwood 1966). So the two fellows simply went to whatever federal bureaucracy managed that cemetary, and asked permission to dig up this one particular grave site. OBVIOUSLY they were told "no". And obviously those powers-that-be insisted there was no treasure in any grave there.

So guess what happens next? Those 2 treasure hunters went public with their research. And went to the media with their efforts to appeal the "no" decision (they were filing lawsuits, garnering petitions, etc...). And I cracked up laughing when I saw a clip of one of the fellows being interviewed. He was CONVINCED that the dig-denial they had, was ALL THE MORE PROOF of a certain treasure there. And any govt. persons denial that there was a treasure there, was simply a grand part of the cover-up going on. A conspiracy, etc....

So too is everything I'm reading in your clippings. Notice for example that the doctor ".... claims to have discovered..." (emphasis mine). Ok, notice it did not say he DID discover. Only claims to have discovered. A bit about that in my next post:

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Wow, and now a possible masonic freemason connection is brought into it ? The plot thickens! I'm sure all such future "possibilities" could likewise be brought into my example of the sidewalk demolition "treasures" too, 100 yrs. from now, by someone doing as thoroughly their research as you have done here.

This sort of reminds me of the fellows who did some sort of research in the deep south states, that pointed to a treasure being in a grave ! Yup, a fallen CW soldier's grave, in some federal cemetary, ... their research led them to believe there was a treasure (instead of a body) in that coffin! Now if you ask me, that sounds like the plot of the Spaghetti Western "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" (Clint Eastwood 1966). So the two fellows simply went to whatever federal bureaucracy managed that cemetary, and asked permission to dig up this one particular grave site. OBVIOUSLY they were told "no". And obviously those powers-that-be insisted there was no treasure in any grave there.

So guess what happens next? Those 2 treasure hunters went public with their research. And went to the media with their efforts to appeal the "no" decision (they were filing lawsuits, garnering petitions, etc...). And I cracked up laughing when I saw a clip of one of the fellows being interviewed. He was CONVINCED that the dig-denial they had, was ALL THE MORE PROOF of a certain treasure there. And any govt. persons denial that there was a treasure there, was simply a grand part of the cover-up going on. A conspiracy, etc....

So too is everything I'm reading in your clippings. Notice for example that the doctor ".... claims to have discovered..." (emphasis mine). Ok, notice it did not say he DID discover. Only claims to have discovered. A bit about that in my next post:

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If you've read T'net, or other md'ing forums for any length of time, you will, from time to time, see posts from guys in either the Phillipines, or Mexico, posting about their searches for humongous caches. Not sure why those 2 particular countries are more prone to treasure legends, but they are. Seems every one is convinced there's treasures in every cave, blah blah blah. And so they come on to forums, seeking advice on a machine that can detect "3 to 5 meters deep". That's 9 to 15 ft. deep! I'm not sure why these people are convinced that treasures are, by necessity, always this deep. But for some reason, that's usually a part of the lore.

Anyhow, one time, I got involved in a thread, with a poster from the Phillipines, who's thread title claimed he had found a fabulous treasure! So he was asking advice on the best detector that could go 3 to 5 meters deep, and then how to sell or export the treasure once he got it out, etc.... Various persons came on board on his thread and answered his questions about the detector technologies: Eg.: GPR, 2-box type units, etc... I came on to alert him that NO metal detector can go 9 to 15 ft. deep, unless the object were as big as a refrigerator to a volkswagon.

But I decided to flush this guy out, and asked him to elaborate on this treasure he had found. Ie.: not asking for specific location, or his name, or whatever, but .... just to elaborate more on the "found" aspect of his claims. Because it was very clear he was not saying he was "researching it", but had, in fact, already FOUND it. I was fishing him out, because I thought maybe he was a scam trying to raise investors. In the end, no, he never asked for investors, but was, in fact, a sincere person who truly believed he'd found a treasure.

But the more I kept pinning him down on specifics, the more his story un-ravelled. Even though he said he had "found" it, it turns out, what he MEANT was, that he had research which, in his mind's eyes, were without a doubt pointing to a certain spot in the jungle, or a certain cave, or a certain mountain, etc.... So he was using the terms "found", as if it was already a certainty. But after a long hard effort on my part, I finally got him to admit that he had, in fact, NOT seen any treasures, and that it was only research at this point. Even though he would admit as such, yet he was convinced it was there, *IF ONLY* he had a machine that went 20 ft. deep, and if he had heavy equipment to get it out, blah blah blah.

As you can probably surmise, such is the outcome of treasure-fever, and over-active imaginations. At no time was this poster anything less than sincere. At no time, in his vocabulary or mind-set, was he lying, spinning, etc.... In his mind (just like the CW grave treasure guys), he had "found" a treasure vault.

The reason I say all this, is because when you post your news links, keep that in mind. When the doctor "claims" to have found such & such, well ....... gee .... history is LITTERED with such sincere persons who, likewise, believe or claim to have "found" a treasure.

If you really want to see a bunch of what is probably really at stake in this El paso story, just do this: Go to google images, and type in the following set of words:

"desert southwest indian ruins"

You will come up with scores of cool looking rock cliff ancient dwelling pix.

 

[Hal Croves]

I am always amazed by the reactions I read when referencing Freemasonry. Mundy, Diaz, Stewart, and AG Foster were all Masons, and that is a simple, documented fact. Nothing conspiratorial about it if you know the true history of Mexico and Texas and their struggle for independence and statehood. I am guessing that you have not spent much time studying the history of Mexico or understand the role of speculative Masonry in American politics and the conquering of the American Southwest. It is a history that few take the time to learn and even fewer appreciate but, its there none the less.

I am not sure what to write about your sidewalk story. You are correct that in 100 years, IF someone were to find your story, and IF you were a Mason, the connection (if discovered), would probably be noted but not much would be made of it as you are, like most of us, relativly unknown to history. And a simple GPR scan would dispel any stories of treasure under your sidewalk. No permits, no digging, just a noninvasive scientific survey. The important difference here is that your story never made the press. Even with people running around not believing that you were the source, your story never reached critical mass. You, I am assuming, are a man of moral character, without the criminal background and public exposure of someone like Berson. The point that I am making is that your story never snowballed into something larger because, at you own admission, there really was no story. That is not the case here.

Remember, Berson had the confidence of President Diaz. Not an easy thing to achieve with a notoriously vengeful dictator. Ask yourself why?
To understand Berson's influence on President Diaz, go back and reread the article about the discoveries made in Mexico.
What was the name of the Aztec stone idol that Berson helped to re-discover?
Why was the discovery of this idol so important to Diaz? to Masonry? to the Aztec Nanahualtin?

Answer these two questions if you can. When you do its like opening a door to a lost part of history.

Bersons story is full of holes. Where are the photographs, the sketches, the artifacts removed from the site? So far, I have found absolutely no physical evidence of a something being discovered in El Paso. But, at the same time, we have NO explanation for Mundy's approval and sudden change of heart. No follow up story in the press, no historical footnotes, no resolution. Until we know what actually happened at the end of January 1899, the mystery remains.

I am considering your idea of Berson writing and planting these articles in the paper. This may be a sample of his writing from his time in San Diego 1886:
Concerning the San Diego Collegiate Institute, we read: "As you pass the corner of 12th and E streets you will notice a little cottage. But for the large and strong double swing, the modest signboard, the spacious playground suggesting the thought of a happy time for children, one would hardly suspect that humble roof is the cradle of learning and knowledge of our growing generation. Yet a visit to its chambers will be repaid by the gratifying discovery of the very nucleus of pedagogism."

 

[Hal Croves]

The copy of a antient picture kept by D. Carlos Siguenza in which is drawn & describ'd the road the antient Mexicans travell'd when they came fromteh Mountains to inhabe the Lake, call'd at present of Mexico, with the Hieroglyphicks signifying the na

Here is the Gemelli map (1704) of the great Aztec migration south and for comparison, a map of the range of Pica Hudsonia. Aztlan, if the translation is correct, may have been located somewhere in the purple. I have read a translation of this map that described Aztalan as being a mountain surrounded by water. This feature may depict a catostrophic flood event. That is an opinion.
View attachment 1096396View attachment 1096397

 

[Tom_in_CA]

And such is the fervor of the faithful. If examples are given (as I've given several now), of the psyschology of treasure lores, legends, tales, etc.... The faithful are sure to give multiple data points (clippings, logical flow-charts, etc...) of how THEIR particular story is the "exception" to this. Of course. Granted.

Oh well, I tried. I suggest you get a bunch of treasure magazines from the 1970s. Each edition was packed with such stories. And each one iron-clad. Even with clippings, narrated logic like you're doing, eyewitness accounts/quotes, and cool drawings of miners posed next to their burro's And as you read each one, they're bullet proof logical, definate, without a doubt, etc....

I'm assuming you live in Texas, eh ? Then you have a lot of 1st generation Mexican emigrants there, like we do in CA, right? Ok: talk to ANY of them. Especially those who came from small hill-country towns there. Ask about the treasures back in their home towns. Get prepared to hear some doozies. All, of course, are iron-clad true. They'll even claim to have seen some treasures, so therefore they're not just "made up" . Never mind that when you pry on this point further, it always turns out that ... well ... they didn't actually *see* the treasure, but they know someone else who most certainly did ! But when you track down that person, well, guess what? They too didn't actually *see* the treasure, but heard if from a reliable source, who saw it". And it never ends Hal.

And if you express doubt in their stories (call them "superstition"), you will simply be met with 5 more data points of logic, proof, etc... pointing to the certainty of it. And you be written off as a "loco americano", etc...

So I took the bait and headed down to Mexico with my employee. Had a blast! Great food, and yes, we found solo individual coins back to the 1830's date-wise. But no caches. As we arrived in each city of his relatives, to go out and hunt the various stories he had, each lead turned out to be nothing more than legend. Every time I'd start to quiz the persons involved, the stories crumbled, and turned out to be nothing more than "he said she said" fanciful legends. Or the ones that really got me laughing, was the "proofs" of someone who "saw a vision", or saw smoke (or fire) coming from the ground, etc.... But heaven help you if you doubt for a moment. The faithful dig in their heels. And if you show them that there is absolutely zero signals from the metal detector coming from the floor of the cave (pull out the headphone jack so they can hear), then even that doesn't mean a treasure isn't there. It simply means your detector doesn't go deep enough. And if you dig 5 ft., and scan the whole again with complete silence, well, that simply means the treasure must be 10 ft. deep. Blah blah blah. At no time is the treasures not there. Or someone came in the night, the night before you, and must've dug it up, rats. But the story itself was true, mind you (yeah right).

I tried Hal. I realize you're story is, of course, "different" from all those others. But so too will all the others , in those people's mind's eyes, be rock solid true. Such is the human mind, when we want to believe so hard in a treasure. I predict you will cite more proofs now, or draw me back to the various ones in your thread. At no time will you doubt for a moment that something good (aside from boring indian ruins) were there in El Paso.

 

[Hal Croves]

It's not my story. It's the story of Reuben Allender Berson, an Oxford man who served time in Britian's penal colonies and after, came to America for a second chance. It's an unfinished, entertaining story that provides insight into the very psychological traps that you have been writing about. Greed, paranoia, the suspension of reason. These are all parts of the game and unfortunately very real aspects of human nature. And it's universal.

Once the goal of treasure hunting is replace with a sincere desire to understand history, true history, much of your argument melts away. I could be right but I have the sense to know that I could be wrong. Parallel thinking.

I appreciate your "trying" and wish you and yours a very happy holiday!

 

[Hal Croves]

Thirty miles east of Berson's Temple is Hueco Tanks. Hundreds of images are found there including this one which, seem strangely out of place.

Getting back to my earlier statement about climate change as a factor for the long (104 year?) migration south:

"The most intensive occupations took place during the Doña Ana phase, between A.D. 1000 and 1300, when groups occupied many areas around the rock hills. In the northeast part of the Tanks, a cluster of rectangular houses was built near areas of moist soils that were used as fields. In another area, leaf succulents were harvested from patches where they thrived, and roasted in bulk in rock-lined pits. Almost all of the items used by prehistoric groups during this time were obtained in or near the Hueco Bolson, but pottery reached them through an interregional trade network that involved groups to the north and northwest, and to a limited extent, Mexico."

Widespread drought in 1206, following a catastrophic Pacific storm that devastated the region and then, on September 28th, 1222, the reappearance of 1P/Halley.


http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/hueco/index.html

 

[Hal Croves]

I took this photograph today. The object is part of a shell "dipper", excavated in 1935 from a burial mound near Spiro, Oklahoma. Look at the lines carefully. What do you see? I think that this is at least evidence that extensive trade routes existed between people in Oklahoma and the Aztec Capital. Or, perhaps the person who caved this or, the person it represents at one time, lived in Oklahoma.

 

[Hal Croves]

On 28, September 1222, 1P/Halley reached perihelion. I believe that 1P/Halley (its arrival) triggered the 104 year migration. 1222 + 104 = 1326.
Compare this to the accepted dates. 1325 / 1326 ? Close. These people had their own mythology about the stars and heavens and comets. 1P/Halley, in their mythology, (I believe) must have been something extremely important.
[TABLE="width: 95%"]
[TR]
[TD]1248[/TD]
[TD]Mexica settle near Lake Texcoco, in Chapultepec, though they are soon expelled by the Tepanecs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1299[/TD]
[TD]Mexica settle in Tizapan, by permission of the Culhuacan ruler Cocoxtli.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1325
[/TD]
[TD]Tenochtitlán is settled by the Mexica[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

"After two centuries of migration and warfare, the Aztecs finally settle within the area now covered by Mexico City. They choose an uninhabited island in Lake Tetzcoco. This is either in the year 1325 or, more probably, 1345. (The difference in date depends on how the Mesoamerican 52-year calendar cycle is integrated with the chronology of the Christian era). They call their settlement Tenochtitlan."

Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa12#ixzz3O5osCOWB

"In A.D. 1111, the Mexica left their native Aztlan to settle in Chicomoztoc (Seven Caves)."
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/aztecs.html




“This was foretold by the kings who governed your city, and now it has taken place. You have come back to us; you have come down from the sky. Rest now, and take possession of your royal houses. Welcome to your land,my lords!”

The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the Conquest of Mexico
Edited by Miguel León-Portilla

Look At the shield in this etching.



​

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[wacouta]

I lived in El Paso in the 70's and I never heard anyone speak of tunnels Or at least not ancient. There is a area of El Paso that has Toltec descendents. I went looking around on Ranger peak a few times and only found a snail shell in the rock about 2 feet across. The area had been under a sea in ancient times.That's all I know!

 

[Hal Croves]

I lived in El Paso in the 70's and I never heard anyone speak of tunnels Or at least not ancient. There is a area of El Paso that has Toltec descendents. I went looking around on Ranger peak a few times and only found a snail shell in the rock about 2 feet across. The area had been under a sea in ancient times.That's all I know!

There are tunnels in El Paso. Many have been mapped by the Feds. Some date to the 1800's and many are relatively new. Search for tunnels, El Paso, at YouTube. Not quite scientific but it gives us a view of what people are discovering.

I tend to believe that a tunnel exists running from the Mundy heights area east to the Franklin Mts. Several people have posted videos about Franklin Mt. YouTube again.

I have asked for help from the El Paso historical society and the UTEP. It's honestly a slow go and no one seems to be familiar with the story.

I know more about this mans life now then I would argue anyone alive.
He truly was a scoundrel.
And yet at this point in my research, I think that he did discover something underneath Mundy Heights.

Can you imaging waking up one morning and reading in the local paper that your Mundy Heights home may be sitting on top of an ancient Aztec Temple filled with records and perhaps even treasure?
And that's how it will happen if something is there.

 

[wacouta]

Try the geology dept. The tunnel may be a natural formation in part. I have seen a cave or two but very small.

 

[Hal Croves]

Try the geology dept. The tunnel may be a natural formation in part. I have seen a cave or two but very small.

The geology department at UTEP? Their archivist is having a difficult time finding anything on the story. I have also exhausted the El Paso historical society. Nothing and no one has ever heard of the story. That tells me it died a quick death. Why? Why? Why?

 

[usernotfound]

Tunnels in sunset heights.

Tales from the Morgue: 2007: Mysterious Tunnels

Thanks for posting Hal.

Believe it it or not, I also ran into this story...and I also noticed the street shape.�� I've read several accounts of tunnels and not the drug smuggling kind.

 

[Hal Croves]

Tunnels in sunset heights.

Tales from the Morgue: 2007: Mysterious Tunnels

Thanks for posting Hal.

Believe it it or not, I also ran into this story...and I also noticed the street shape.�� I've read several accounts of tunnels and not the drug smuggling kind.

I can't say what's there but it's a fantastic story.