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Blak bart

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Meanwhile out in the reality of the real world...black bart finds another shipwreck!!
Screenshot_20240116_071820_Google Earth.jpg
And while the archeologist debate projects and budgets with the state bureaucrats ill fund my own exploration of this one.....ill travel there in May, drive the long distance to the isolated beach, and then paddle out alone to the spot and document it myself. When does the so called amateur, and novice, with his own initiative and funding actually get credit for making more discoveries and having greater dedication than the actual state controlled and funded "experts " don't even try to say that the states archeologist are making all these great discoveries, when i myself with Google earth, and no more than a kyak can make discovery after discovery with out any help from my esteemed archeological comrades, with a 0 dollar budget, and no million dollar mag surveys of the area ? I absolutely know that I have more experience, and made more underwater discoveries in the last few months, than the entire state of Florida's underwater archeological team !! I also believe I've been underwater on more unknown first ever seen wrecks this year alone than any one in the entire state of Florida's archeological team...I may be wrong, but I still believe that to be true !! I bet I have more uunderwater Wreck experience than most archeologist, and I know I will continue to search for wrecks no matter what !! When do the people with the practical on site experience get the honorary degree in underwater archeology? When the archeologist come to the keys, they charter guys like me to lead them on the journey !! I watched the east Carolina (so called team) excavate a site here in the keys.....looked to me like a fantastic vacation for rich students in the keys. Not only did I observe from a distance with binoculars, I inspected there site and work, saw there posts on social media, and ultimately observed violations in there contract that were committed by the state. The site was never resanded in as per the contract with the state, they failed to find the secondary site location that contains the bulk of artifacts, and many unprofessional and reckless posts on social media showing everyone carelessly taking photos of themselves standing on the timbers of a sensitive wreck with metal detectors. The state was supposed to come back in and resand the wreck, but a year later it was still exposed to the open current, and being degraded by said current..... very few of the citizens that fund this type of weekend warrior archeology for rich kids ever do the oversight of these ops......well I did in secret and it was a load of bullsh*t. There were some great college party picks at the exclusive and state owned facility that they stay and work from. We need to accompany our archeologist on site, and hold them to the standards they presume to follow, and they should be terminated or suspended for any breach of contract....they oversee us, but we should be observing them, and holding them to there own standards....they work for me, and you.....we the people....not the other way around !!
 

Blak bart

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This one I found while spearfishing with @scott_thorn6 we were pretty far from the boat....maybe 300 yards. So its been complete failure at relocating it. Finally I think I know how to get back to it by land marks on the sea floor. The large round, encrusted object in the beginning is most certainly associated with the ballast spill/mound. Im not sure if this is a spill, or mound, or just how much more is hidden in the sand and grass. There was one long straight object I was fixated on while filming, and it looks alot like a flintlock barrel !! After analyzing the #goprofootage frame by frame it was clear just how much I missed in my excitement at this discovery!! There are some other interesting encrusted objects, or what they call E.O.s....im not saying there's possibly treasure here, but surely wouldn't rule it out. I only wish I could relocate it !! Sometimes you only get a glimpse, and it's later you realize just how important it might be !!
#shipwreck #pirateshipwreck #underwaterexploration #treasurehunting #treasurewreck #treasurehunter #freediving #wreckdiving #ballastpile #shipwreckballast #galleonhunters


Just one of a few that I found in 2023 and documented.....an absolutely beautiful ballast pile, and probably a significant find....there were encrusted objects...EOs everywhere !! Im not even allowed to check one ballast stone to see where they even originated ?? If the state were serious about this, then they would have there hands full for 100 years just in the keys. The only museums that I see here in the keys are privately funded without a single example of our maritime cultural heritage being displayed by the state at a state run facility anywhere in the keys ?? The melfisher museum has a state of the art archeological lab with experts preserving the heritage all the time !! Such a lie to say they haven't done a good job. The shipwreck museum next door is also private, and does an excellent job at preserving the artifacts from the Isaac Allerton.....it to is privately owned and funded. The archeologist come here on vacation and justify themselves to carry off our keys cultural heritage to places like Indiana, and east Carolina, and many other locations other than where it belongs....here in the keys where it's part of our historical narrative.....there is no archeological reason for stealing our heritage and carrying it off to other states and countries in the name of scientific research!! Its no different to carry it away from the keys and lock it into a university vault or drawer hidden from the people who it means something to ? It's the same as selling it to private people never to be seen again. Best collection of onion bottles I ever saw were in the house of an archeologist......all were collected during the search for a historical wreck......the justification when pressed was this.....(I was searching for this wreck, and these are all unrelated, and from a different time period.....they were just discarded bottles from over the years at this anchorage)

Rant over....just had to throw my rant in too !!🫑🫑
 

Red_desert

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I'm starting to see news headlines about winter storms exposing shipwrecks. All you need right now are your own eyeballs to find a wreck.
 

Crow

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Personally I prefer commodity wrecks these days vessel cargo ships carrying precious metal with advances of deep sea salvage technology some of these vessels can be obtained outside the political jurisdiction of countries.

That said it is still a business. And like business it has to make a profit. Because it costs big bucks to deep water salvage

As the following below shipwreck identities are under confidentiality agreement.

19th century shipwreck carrying 13 tones of silver coins.

one 20th century vessel had copper ingots worth 53 million.

Another 2oth century vessel worth about 168 million in Nickel ingots.

Another 19th century wreck 50000 gold sovereigns worth approximate 11000 ounce with about 22 million melt value. Collector value about 50 million depending on condition.

20th century ship worth about 18 million copper ingots. all well and good by will they turn a profit? if they go ahead their is still a massive outlay. bring government and lawyers in then you will get to see who the real pirates are.

But its the nature of beast and the devil you dance with!

Crow
 

Blak bart

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Personally I prefer commodity wrecks these days vessel cargo ships carrying precious metal with advances of deep sea salvage technology some of these vessels can be obtained outside the political jurisdiction of countries.

That said it is still a business. And like business it has to make a profit. Because it costs big bucks to deep water salvage

As the following below shipwreck identities are under confidentiality agreement.

19th century shipwreck carrying 13 tones of silver coins.

one 20th century vessel had copper ingots worth 53 million.

Another 2oth century vessel worth about 168 million in Nickel ingots.

Another 19th century wreck 50000 gold sovereigns worth approximate 11000 ounce with about 22 million melt value. Collector value about 50 million depending on condition.

20th century ship worth about 18 million copper ingots. all well and good by will they turn a profit? if they go ahead their is still a massive outlay. bring government and lawyers in then you will get to see who the real pirates are.

But its the nature of beast and the devil you dance with!

Crow
Yup...the maritime lawyer is one hell of a predator !! They can be more dangerous than great whites !! You definitely have a better chance of being attacked by maritime lawyers than a great white in the underwater treasure industry!!πŸ˜…πŸ€£
 

Blak bart

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Best I can do is make a youtu.be channel and try to get a following by constantly going to these wrecks and filming there discovery.....I don't have to touch to film and document every new wreck, and even return to old forgotten wrecks !! Besides hunting on the beaches, and extreme shallows I'm reduced to this type of exploration underwater. My equipment is no more than mask, fins, pole spear, and go-pro !! Some money can be made by these adventures alone if filmed and presented correctly. Combined with some great beach hunting, and it may be possible to profit from the wrecks in this manner.....I don't need any permit to hunt wrecks like we always have.....Bob Marx style....drag behind a boat all day long spear fishing, shell diving, and wreck hunting !! No expensive electronic surveys with state permission....just a few islanders doing what islanders have always done. It's always found out at the end of alot of these "great discoveries" that it was a poor local fisherman, or spearfisherman, or shellfish diver....that actually showed or tipped off these famous explorers to the wreck site. Ok, maybe I never find a 16th century shipwreck.....seems impossible huh ? Well maybe I go back over the same ground after a cat 3-5 hurricane, and millions of metric tons of sand...maybe billions have been shifted and moved, and bang....there it is...an ancient shipwreck. Its the intellectual rights to the film and digital documentation, the podcasts, and instagram influencing, and the rights to have access to the treasures you've found...no matter where there housed by government that will be money makers. All that being said.....it ain't easy to get these projects off the ground, and I've threatened for awhile to try this approach. I finally have some heavy weight help, and my boat up and running.....itching for some clear, calm,warm water days to get in on my winter find this year....its a big French wreck, piece of a 1733 galleon, or 1 of 3 other possible wrecks !! This one blew me away when I found it in the most unlikely of spots !! Remember the magnotometer can't see ballast, ceramics, glass, or even the good metals like gold, silver, copper etc.etc.etc. the old twin optical scanners can though !!
 

TheRealTim

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Aug 17, 2022
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Guidelines in place... upfront realistic agreements with training required for permit. (with updates).
Assigned Archie upon location / discovery.
After timely documentation / assessment of value... initial reward awarded to finders with residual payment(s) if amount surpasses initial monetary or historical values are surpassed.

Something along these lines STARTS to make sense.

Archies would be so busy it wouldn't be funny ........ wait........ maybe that's it......... they don't want to be "busy"... perhaps they like talking and social blah blah half the time and milking it...
OR... Its the ole take your time and drag feet until they ALMOST pull the funding plug or we have fully exhausted it ? ? ?
OR... Who's in a hurry anyway... we all are going to be around forever... don't want to finish then we have nothing to justify what we are getting paid for / doing .. ? ? ?
OR... We have to study it until all eyes are crossed and everyone else has grown bored ? ? ?
OR... God knows it will be a long time until we find something else to ride at the snails pace ? ? ?

Seems like THE ONLY time the fuel gets pushed on a project is when fear sets in of losing something for one reason or another... then all hands on deck !

Just being "funny"... but....... heh... :)
I understand and I see your point. You're discussing guidelines and agreements, which in states that I'm familiar with are guided by administrative rules developed based on legislative authority (laws) created by state legislatures. But that's not big picture, or even the most important issue.

How does any of this align with the Sunken Military Craft Act? I've said this for years - states/state archaeologists can't permit or authorize archaeological or recovery work on a sovereign vessel. That's not my opinion, that's the result of the SMCA and has been made clear in the rules promulgated as the result of that law, AND by numerous foreign nations (including Spain, France, England, and others).

How can one expect government employees to proceed in a manner contrary to federal law?

Don't hate the player, hate the game, as they say.
 

Blak bart

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If you go back, and look at my video of the ballast mound, and I mean anyone....then let's here what everyone thinks.....I would love to hear from experienced archeologist and other wreck divers what there theory is on this ballast !! I have a rock solid theory on how long it's been exposed, why it's never been documented, and why it looks exactly like it does at this video point. Anyone with experience in this type of discovery can make a pretty good assessment from just observing that footage !! If no one says anything, then eventually I'll give you some lame ass amateur assessment of this ballast and what happened to a certain extent. Maybe some can deduce things I'm overlooking, but we will see ?? If you don't get in the water ALOT, you will probably not pick up on the clues here.....its a good wreck, and that's hard to say about most.....the archeologist should be interested in this type of discovery.....its a legit....good find !!
 

Blak bart

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I understand and I see your point. You're discussing guidelines and agreements, which in states that I'm familiar with are guided by administrative rules developed based on legislative authority (laws) created by state legislatures. But that's not big picture, or even the most important issue.

How does any of this align with the Sunken Military Craft Act? I've said this for years - states/state archaeologists can't permit or authorize archaeological or recovery work on a sovereign vessel. That's not my opinion, that's the result of the SMCA and has been made clear in the rules promulgated as the result of that law, AND by numerous foreign nations (including Spain, France, England, and others).

How can one expect government employees to proceed in a manner contrary to federal law?

Don't hate the player, hate the game, as they say.
Come down Tim.....ill take you out, and show you in person this spring and summer many prime candidates for archeological exploration on plenty non military craft.....whats wrong with the many merchant vessels....Plenty peppercorns, and rat droppings to analyze, and years of work to do. I'm being sarcastic to some, but ya....im interested in this type of study as much as an archeologist is. Let's get to work....ill pay for gas and supply the boat, and I've got an award winning and very popular film crew !! Let's go man !! Don't you guys work for the people ? Or is it the state ? I'm offering a free boat ride to undiscovered wrecks.....im ready to go next month or 2 when water clarity is good. Ill be filming it all either way.....sure would be great to have someone from the state work with me ...... Tim....this is free enterprise trying to work with you guys.....what more do you need to go to work with us.....I can provide drinks and food, and mandatory 15 minute breaks like the state does.
 

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TheRealTim

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Come down Tim.....ill take you out, and show you in person this spring and summer many prime candidates for archeological exploration on plenty non military craft.....whats wrong with the many merchant vessels....Plenty peppercorns, and rat droppings to analyze, and years of work to do. I'm being sarcastic to some, but ya....im interested in this type of study as much as an archeologist is. Let's get to work....ill pay for gas and supply the boat, and I've got an award winning and very popular film crew !! Let's go man !! Don't you guys work for the people ? Or is it the state ? I'm offering a free boat ride to undiscovered wrecks.....im ready to go next month or 2 when water clarity is good. Ill be filming it all either way.....sure would be great to have someone from the state work with me ...... Tim....this is free enterprise trying to work with you guys.....what more do you need to go to work with us.....I can provide drinks and food, and mandatory 15 minute breaks like the state does.
I don't work for the state.

None of this matters, though. You don't have to convince me, or state employees. The Sunken Military Craft Act is a federal law. Taking bureaucrats on a boat ride to see a shipwreck doesn't accomplish anything. Bureaucrats can't change the law.

EDIT: What I'm saying is, cool. You know where shipwrecks are. I'm not judging your ability to study them or recover them. Congress created the SMCA and courts have upheld and clarified it. EDIT 2: I think there's a bright future for filming/production/etc. when it comes to shipwrecks, non-commercial wrecks or otherwise.
 

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Blak bart

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I don't work for the state.

None of this matters, though. You don't have to convince me, or state employees. The Sunken Military Craft Act is a federal law. Taking bureaucrats on a boat ride to see a shipwreck doesn't accomplish anything. Bureaucrats can't change the law.

EDIT: What I'm saying is, cool. You know where shipwrecks are. I'm not judging your ability to study them or recover them. Congress created the SMCA and courts have upheld and clarified it. EDIT 2: I think there's a bright future for filming/production/etc. when it comes to shipwrecks, non-commercial wrecks or otherwise.
10/4 "player"....I understand. Military Craft are but a tiny portion of the wrecks, and it's far more common to come across many other types and classes of Sunken vessels, both ancient and modern. And yes your right.....when is it time to assess these laws again and make amendments according to just the passing of time, and the advancements of technology and society?? Most of these laws are getting old in the tooth and were set forth years ago !! What does it take to get some Supreme Court rulings on things like this ...... does it really take someone challenging the law.....I would think challenging a law means breaking one first ?? I'm not encouraging that, but I'm asking what it takes.....what would happen if you were to work with Spain, and invite them in with there very best, and brightest minds, and they lobby the state and feds for some excavation permits ??? Maybe you voluntarily invite unesco to be involved, and lobby florida too ?? And how about all the treasured artifacts, whether there gold or silver are preserved and housed in a museum, and put on tour throughout the world's museums, for profit !! Like the tutankaum displays?? You archeologist types would be free to donate your share to wherever whenever!! I as private enterprise would have access to "our" discoveries, and be able to handle and film "our" treasure !! Whether it's gold dobloons, or peppercorns, and rat droppings !! Study, handle, and profit from the exclusive digital and media material. All this can be filmed and made into content for any number of extremely profitable digital platforms....this is how to make money, without destroying the collection, and keeping it all together.

And yes....of coarse....if a huge valuable treasure is found I would certainly want a reasonable % of a crossection of artifacts, for myself.....which would of coarse mean being able to sell them if I liked !!

Well Tim maybe someone can extend an olive branch and start some modern talks about the "process" it might not seem like it to everyone, but I'm trying very hard to hopefully change some minds and start that process well see how far I can go, and if it'll change anything....probably not but I'm working at it !!

P.S.
I'll take beaurocrats and every person possible on boat rides and keep this at the forefront of as many people as it takes to get attention because I can....the offer stands beaurocrat....we start documenting in spring...just like every dive season begins. Maybe I'm willing to try and change your mind, and have you on our side....whether you think you matter or not in the argument??
 

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Blak bart

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This is what I mean....let's make an agreement, and effff it all up !! What I'm talking about works so well that the state couldn't even cooperate!! We've all been Robbed of what this discovery could have been for everyone with a celebrated media blitz, and marketing campaign!! The specials and media productions, and the story has almost slipped by the mainstream.....one of the biggest historical finds ever, and melfishers atocha, gets more press, research, and attention !!

Why you ask ? Because bad press, breach of contract by the state, and there beaurocrats, and legal wrangling has smothered what should be as epic as the "titanic", and made into a movie as well.
Screenshot_20240118_142336_Chrome.jpg

Right there, is what I'm talking about, and the digital, and other rights are the wave of the future.....it can happen, it dosent have to always be a fight and it shouldn't be. we all love this maritime history, and should all be able to contribute to the narrative, save history, and find treasure!!
 

Crow

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Best I can do is make a youtu.be channel and try to get a following by constantly going to these wrecks and filming there discovery.....I don't have to touch to film and document every new wreck, and even return to old forgotten wrecks !! Besides hunting on the beaches, and extreme shallows I'm reduced to this type of exploration underwater. My equipment is no more than mask, fins, pole spear, and go-pro !! Some money can be made by these adventures alone if filmed and presented correctly. Combined with some great beach hunting, and it may be possible to profit from the wrecks in this manner.....I don't need any permit to hunt wrecks like we always have.....Bob Marx style....drag behind a boat all day long spear fishing, shell diving, and wreck hunting !! No expensive electronic surveys with state permission....just a few islanders doing what islanders have always done. It's always found out at the end of alot of these "great discoveries" that it was a poor local fisherman, or spearfisherman, or shellfish diver....that actually showed or tipped off these famous explorers to the wreck site. Ok, maybe I never find a 16th century shipwreck.....seems impossible huh ? Well maybe I go back over the same ground after a cat 3-5 hurricane, and millions of metric tons of sand...maybe billions have been shifted and moved, and bang....there it is...an ancient shipwreck. Its the intellectual rights to the film and digital documentation, the podcasts, and instagram influencing, and the rights to have access to the treasures you've found...no matter where there housed by government that will be money makers. All that being said.....it ain't easy to get these projects off the ground, and I've threatened for awhile to try this approach. I finally have some heavy weight help, and my boat up and running.....itching for some clear, calm,warm water days to get in on my winter find this year....its a big French wreck, piece of a 1733 galleon, or 1 of 3 other possible wrecks !! This one blew me away when I found it in the most unlikely of spots !! Remember the magnotometer can't see ballast, ceramics, glass, or even the good metals like gold, silver, copper etc.etc.etc. the old twin optical scanners can though !!
Hello Bart

You have envious life already with the fishing in that part of world. I like to fish I love fishing but I will not kill a fish if I do not intend to eat it. If I hunt I hunt for food. And thumbs up by your noble intention filming these sites but please make sure you keep the exact locations secret.

There are a legion of you tubers filming really interesting stuff. However there is a downside in all this. Not just with treasure or shipwreck locations. It same with abandoned houses and even alleged haunted places or pretty secret camping beauty spots. While if fun to see on you tube. I watch you tube more than anything.I am guilty as charged.

But It also attracts the idiots and brain dead masses to follow and destroy. It is the same with camping spots I knew for years ago no one knew about? Once they hit social media killed them with every Joe blow and his dog turning up. Trashing the sites with leaving garbage making the place look like homeless encampment.

Or we have the selfie kamikazes hanging of cliffs and falling off them. Then the locals got to risk their sorry ass to save or retrieve these idiots bodies at their cost.

It was same for isolated rock carving petrogyths thousands of year old once exposed the location on you tube, people trashed them carve their names into them and the history is gone. Survived thousands of years! did not survive you tube the few short years of existence of social media.

Then the government and state steeped into the circus and what was once a beautiful free secret chill place becomes little more than McDonalds outlet run by bureaucrats taking charge with red tape everywhere. Do not step off the trail and fences everywhere.

Many years ago at a dive spot near me we had massive grouper called Henry we used feed it as to local divers it was so tame like a puppy dog you could pat it. It got filmed by a you tuber who reveled the location then everyone one and his dog wanted get photograph with the huge grouper.

Once the location became known. Some week end warrior came and speared it. Just to show himself off on you tube what a big hero he was? Then it was left it to rot. This is the down side of You tubers! They may make some money exposing sites and locations! But it can come at a very great cost to the subjects they film.

Crow
 

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Crow

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Here is a quick yarn for you. First I will not confirm or de nigh any personal connection or involvement to story in question. Hell I do not even care if I am believed or not? Perhaps better for all concerned, that I am not believed?

In the treasure hunting game you live in ocean of sharks. That is the stark reality. You have a plan or project in most cases your considered just an egocentric dreamer. Attempt to recover some thing you are seen as just a crazy. Succeed in your business venture. As all projects in reality are business ventures. Every vulture that has stalked the seven seas will want piece of your ass. Politicians, government officials and every self opinionated self righteous academic will want to skin you alive. Try to work with them they get in your way and impede you every step of the way.

Once such group i cannot name because of legal reasons had a project? It is true some shipwrecks are not worth the effort top salvage. After all a commercial project has to make a profit? Some archeologists are horrified at this reality but the reality we living consumer commodity driven society. That cold hard facts academic forget? They live the closeted academic world that has never done work a days worth in their lives. So they have a very simplified view of the world according to what they have been taught in left wing universities that are little more mouth pieces for communist party. Especially humanities, the arts and history departments..

This project proposal was of shipwreck dating from 1867. I Struck coral reef and sank it was carry 160 chests of silver coinage to Australia. It was being sent out from London to Sydney., as there was desperate need in the colonies in Australia during the gold rush for silver coin. Ironic as all the gold was flowing back to London.

For security and legal reasons I will not reveal The identity of the vessel or even reveal the location of where it sank. Here is a picture of the vessel that sank.

MYSTERY SHIP.JPG


Irony of it all amigo? it was just virtually forgotten to history.

Crow
 

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Crow

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Here is some pictures of the reef where it sank.

panoramio-50922903.jpg


panoramio-50922915.jpg


panoramio-50926153.jpg


In short due to navigation Error the ship struck the coral atoll at night. Most of passengers and crew got ashore about 12 chests of money was saved but the rest was in flooded hold as ship slowly broke apart against the reef..

The ship broke up and sank into deeper water and was lost. there is in effect up 148 boxes chests of coin in her. About around 13 tons of silver.

As the marine Bord of inquiry the captain took much of blame blame on the loss of the vessel for failing to take reckoning . Much of the cargo was not insured.

Thus over time the controversy like all disaster fade away. Yet the ship with cargo of silver coin bound for Australia sat there. in wreck broken up. In water too deep for 1867 diving technology.

The loss of the cargo was not well known.

Crow
 

Crow

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13 tons of coins today with worth about 9152000 dollars today.

The group tried to do the right thing and was as usual screwed over. Old agreement in the past with country this atoll belonged to 80 percent to salvage team and 20 percent to government. Out of that 80 percent the salvage team had to pay for everything. But then politician got involved thinking that was going to be huge profit to be made. changed the law so the government went 60 40 share where salvage team got 40% on the threshold of the melt value of cargo 9152000 there gross income if fully salvaged was 3.6 million. And that had to cover all costs.

The irony was The retail value of a 1867 'third young head' British
shilling can range from Β£55 to over Β£1,400, depending on grade,
condition, and demand.

1867-uk-shilling-reverse2c-victoria2c-5b2c-d895-28cf29.jpg

In the end the salvage team was virtual salvaging the commodity for free. There very little margin for profit. The deal fell though.

And there the situation stayed in state mate? Or did it?

Crow
 

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Crow

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Everything went all quiet the matter dropped archeologists was all snug that the deal fell through. But they in their arrogance do not understand that some sites are remote costly to go to and hard to police?

TREASURE ISLAND.JPG


Yet there was others in original group who had tried to make a deal had vest time and money. About 1.2 million into project out pocket because of indifference of the government in question and arrogance of academia.

What they lost was the story some of treasure and a great opportunity was lot. Just to virtue signal to satisfy a few sniveling archeologists in their ivory towers. They was going to be part of the project. But they would not come on board as the coin was going to used pay for the project.

In frustration the group left the matter drop. But Went to search for the shipwreck without approval. It is not illegal to search for shipwrecks.

What happened next?

My guess the government involved did not get its cut! And official stance is that it did not happen. The parties involve will not admit to anything incriminating at all.

The story of what happened next can never be told or even admitted to. Other than A few years later the parties involved are flush with money.

So you see there is things going on under the shadow of the arrogant noses of the powers to be? Just like in days of prohibition.

Prohibition never worked and never will. You want to control game become the the play maker.

Crow
 

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