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The Rebel

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Love how the organizations spend no time or money looking for these wrecks but wait in the shadows for someone who does and then they criticize them. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

It's interesting that when archeologists do it it's all ok.

I've been to Mel's museum and it's well done. Are there some who do it not by the rules, sure but the same holds for the Archie's as well


 

sphillips

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The “educated archaeologists” will never have the know how to raise the money to find these artifacts. Only the private sector has the will. The Archie’s would rather it sit buried in sand forever where no one will have the opportunity to see and feel this history. Ignorance is bliss.
 

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Tanneyhill

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Love how the organizations spend no time or money looking for these wrecks but wait in the shadows for someone who does and then they criticize them. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

It's interesting that when archeologists do it it's all ok.

I've been to Mel's museum and it's well done. Are there some who do it not by the rules, sure but the same holds for the Archie's as well


Under water archeologists r disguised thieves. Go to their homes and I bet you find many priceless artifacts in their possession.
 

lukdiver2

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Under water archeologists r disguised thieves. Go to their homes and I bet you find many priceless artifacts in their possession.
Just had to register again (originally 2012 join date) and probably posted this story before but it fits once again. Back in the late '80's I was delivering a sailboat with a girlfriend and hanging on the dock at Port Royal hotel waiting for the replacement crew. There was a American company owned by a couple brothers who were rebuilding the docks. I'd watch their bubbles and occasionally they'd venture 'offshore'. Turns out they were exploring the remains of the old town and one of the brothers told me he went back to Miami and was selling the coins (pieces of eight) and after visiting a couple shops the buyers told him someone else had been in with a shoe-box full of the same era coins. By the description they figured out it was one of the 2 students from MIT staying at the hotel who were working on the government project mapping Port Royal. Seems like he had figured out a way to pay off his student debt 'on the side'. Kinda funny given that the Jamaican government had accused Bob Marx of pirating some coins from the dig at Port Royal and then later found them lost in storage.
 

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Red_desert

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I was curious enough to do an AI report on student archaeologists. Yes, in depends on the laws where the dive project takes place and if they have an agreement with government agencies. Apparently, government agencies permit what is allowed by thesse agreements;

Question-Do archaeological students from universities, get to keep shipwreck coins on dive projects?

Archaeological students from universities may have the opportunity to participate in dive projects involving shipwrecks. These projects provide valuable hands-on experience and contribute to the study and preservation of underwater heritage. For example, Indiana University students have been involved in diving for shipwrecks in collaboration with NOAA 1. Similarly, the Center for Underwater Science at Indiana University has partnered with NOAA's National Marine Sanctuaries on underwater archaeological projects 2. Other universities, such as East Carolina University, have also engaged students in shipwreck research and excavation projects These projects often form part of the students' degree studies and offer opportunities to develop skills in underwater archaeology However, it is important to note that the ownership and retention of artifacts recovered from shipwrecks are subject to legal and ethical considerations. Laws and regulations vary depending on the jurisdiction and the specific circumstances of the project. The primary focus is typically on the documentation, preservation, and study of artifacts rather than personal ownership.

The legal retention of shipwreck coins found during dives by archaeology students depends on various factors, including the jurisdiction and the specific circumstances of the project. Laws and regulations regarding the ownership and retention of artifacts recovered from shipwrecks can vary.
In general, the primary focus of archaeological projects involving shipwrecks is on the documentation, preservation, and study of artifacts rather than personal ownership. The goal is to understand the historical and cultural significance of the artifacts and ensure their long-term preservation for future research and public education.
It is important to note that some projects may have specific agreements or partnerships with government agencies or organizations that dictate the handling and ownership of artifacts. For example, salvage rights to shipwreck sites may be granted to specific entities, limiting access and ownership for others.
To ensure compliance with legal and ethical considerations, archaeology students and professionals typically work closely with relevant authorities, such as government agencies, museums, or research institutions, to properly document and preserve artifacts recovered from shipwrecks. These authorities often have established protocols for the handling, cataloging, and storage of artifacts.
In summary, while archaeology students may have the opportunity to participate in dive projects involving shipwrecks, the legal retention of shipwreck coins and other artifacts is subject to specific laws, regulations, and agreements. The focus is generally on the documentation, preservation, and study of artifacts rather than personal ownership.
 

dersegler

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I can relate to the content of this post. See my own post on this forum dated 03July2021 entitled, “Seeking Advice on Shipwreck Discovery”. Finding treasure can open up a “treasure trove” (npi) of hassles and obstacles sometimes to the point that the details remain secret. Based on the comments received on that post, I suspect some people did not believe me thinking I was just weaving a story. I can tell you that those who did not believe have not experienced the intrusiveness and hounding of those seeking to know for their own gain. They will make your life miserable.

I have done a lot of shipwreck research in my life. I never intended to; I am a biologist and loved diving for the magnificent marine life but quickly became fascinated with the history of the wrecks. Researching wrecks is a tedious and time-consuming task but I was good at it and lucky. It amazes me how devious and elusive the trade of information becomes. I had once requisitioned a book that was in the hands of the librarian while I was on the phone with her. A few days later I got a call stating that the information is not available and suddenly all aspects of that material vanished from all national and local library sources. One time I posted an esoteric bit of information on a thread from this forum in which I provided likely detail as to the whereabouts of treasure from a well sought after wreck. That was the only post I ever made that was deleted and not by me. There was nothing derogatory or crazy in the post. Technical glitch? Or was it that someone didn’t want that information made public. My post disappeared from that thread and my personal queue in about three days. The remainder of that thread remained intact. Kind of sounds like the old X-Files TV series, eh?
 

MiddenMonster

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Finding treasure can open up a “treasure trove” (npi) of hassles and obstacles sometimes to the point that the details remain secret.

Well, finding a treasure and making public the knowledge of it can sure open up a lot of hassles. Just sayin'...

One time I posted an esoteric bit of information on a thread from this forum in which I provided likely detail as to the whereabouts of treasure from a well sought after wreck. That was the only post I ever made that was deleted and not by me. There was nothing derogatory or crazy in the post. Technical glitch? Or was it that someone didn’t want that information made public.

Hang on, now. Are you saying that you posted something to Treasure Net, on a forum that is specifically designed to discuss everything treasure and has thousands of posts about actual treasure that has been found, complete with pictures and documentary evidence, and your post was deleted by someone here on Treasure Net, a forum that is specifically designed to discuss everything treasure and has thousands of posts about actual treasure that has been found, complete with pictures and documentary evidence? No offense, but I'd like you to back that up. And also speculate why, for any reason someone here would want to keep that information from the public. Any reason whatsoever.
 

Crow

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Gidday amigo

I you dangle a peace of meat into a sea of sharks you cannot expect not to get bitten?

If you cannot salvage your shipwreck in secret and have the contacts to turn it into liquid assets and have knowledge how to covertly move such assets over international borders then. Bribe the living crop out out of everyone.

No mater how secretly you try to be with your discovery the end result be the same. I understand your hesitancy. But there will come a time you have to weigh up the risk for reward factor. If there is too much risk too little reward. Then its time to walk away amigo.

I got told once you can rant and rave all you like no one cares No governments care. start bringing up gold then see the revolving door of vultures wanting a bite of your sorry ass off.

Crow
 

Red_desert

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How many years and how many threads, did I mention on the forum here, a lost French fleet could be up much farther north from Cape Canaveral? Too many times, just don't ask me to find the posts or maps posted. I'm sure every one of them most likely is still there. Didn't think people were noticing, about 2 degrees north of the Cape. Chanches are wrecks were already known to a few, reason for them not saying anything. If a post gets deleted on TN normally it is because of some rule violation.
 

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Crow

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Gidday amigo

I you dangle a peace of meat into a sea of sharks you cannot expect not to get bitten?

If you cannot salvage your shipwreck in secret and have the contacts to turn it into liquid assets and have knowledge how to covertly move such assets over international borders then. Bribe the living crop out out of everyone.

No mater how secretly you try to be with your discovery the end result be the same. I understand your hesitancy. But there will come a time you have to weigh up the risk for reward factor. If there is too much risk too little reward. Then its time to walk away amigo.

I got told once you can rant and rave all you like no one cares No governments care. start bringing up gold then see the revolving door of vultures wanting a bite of your sorry ass off.

Crow

Very likely the Khazarian Mafia that owns and runs the Federal Reserve & most Central Banks in the world and which has bought most Western politicians thru blackmail and bribery. I think all public treasure legends are deceptions inserted into the public domain to keep people occupied chasing ghost gold bars while THEY have used the full resources of the federal governments they control to go after real treasures. The history as we know it today has largely been manufactured by various powers over the centuries in order to serve their interests. Hence, I am not surprised the information in the library vanished into thin air and your posting on TNet was deleted.
Well AMIGO

There are two types of people in this world. Its not connected to race age or sex. Its come down to two basic types.

The wolves and sheep. Those the Wolves who makes and breaks the rules to their whims. And the followers, the sheep, the heard that blindly follows the whims of wolves. Does not matter the type government, the religion race, or political persuasion they are all the same.

The day you really understand that is when you truly become free. If you want to make money in this world you need to understand that. Love it hate it? Its the sad inconvenient fact of life.

Crow
 

MiddenMonster

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If a post gets deleted on TN normally it is because of some rule violation.

I agree. I really can't imagine a global conspiracy that has any control over what gets posted here. On the other hand, I could easily imagine the revenuers and other bureaucrat types lurking in the shadows on every site where treasure is discussed, waiting to swoop in and take the government cut.

I think all public treasure legends are deceptions inserted into the public domain to keep people occupied chasing ghost gold bars while THEY have used the full resources of the federal governments they control to go after real treasures.

I'm not sure how that would work. A lot of the treasure legends--both caches and sunken ships were documented and created at or near the time they occurred. If a new legend popped up about Shorty Witherspoon's hidden cache of gold then yeah, that could be fake. But if the legend can be tracked back to near the time when it happened, then the chances of it being planted seem pretty small. I also doubt that the world's elite are too concerned with getting their hands on treasure. They seem to be more interested in power, and we are the treasure they seek to use as a resource to consolidate and expand that power. Treasures like gold, jewels and artworks are merely what they would use to ornament their cushy lives.

The wolves and sheep. Those the Wolves who makes and breaks the rules to their whims. And the followers, the sheep, the heard that blindly follows the whims of wolves.

Dan Bongino adds one more type of person to that list: Sheep dogs whose job it is to protect the sheep. But as a former cop and Secret Service agent it makes sense that he would see it that way.
 

TheRealTim

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I was curious enough to do an AI report on student archaeologists. Yes, in depends on the laws where the dive project takes place and if they have an agreement with government agencies. Apparently, government agencies permit what is allowed by thesse agreements;

Question-Do archaeological students from universities, get to keep shipwreck coins on dive projects?

Archaeological students from universities may have the opportunity to participate in dive projects involving shipwrecks. These projects provide valuable hands-on experience and contribute to the study and preservation of underwater heritage. For example, Indiana University students have been involved in diving for shipwrecks in collaboration with NOAA 1. Similarly, the Center for Underwater Science at Indiana University has partnered with NOAA's National Marine Sanctuaries on underwater archaeological projects 2. Other universities, such as East Carolina University, have also engaged students in shipwreck research and excavation projects These projects often form part of the students' degree studies and offer opportunities to develop skills in underwater archaeology However, it is important to note that the ownership and retention of artifacts recovered from shipwrecks are subject to legal and ethical considerations. Laws and regulations vary depending on the jurisdiction and the specific circumstances of the project. The primary focus is typically on the documentation, preservation, and study of artifacts rather than personal ownership.

The legal retention of shipwreck coins found during dives by archaeology students depends on various factors, including the jurisdiction and the specific circumstances of the project. Laws and regulations regarding the ownership and retention of artifacts recovered from shipwrecks can vary.
In general, the primary focus of archaeological projects involving shipwrecks is on the documentation, preservation, and study of artifacts rather than personal ownership. The goal is to understand the historical and cultural significance of the artifacts and ensure their long-term preservation for future research and public education.
It is important to note that some projects may have specific agreements or partnerships with government agencies or organizations that dictate the handling and ownership of artifacts. For example, salvage rights to shipwreck sites may be granted to specific entities, limiting access and ownership for others.
To ensure compliance with legal and ethical considerations, archaeology students and professionals typically work closely with relevant authorities, such as government agencies, museums, or research institutions, to properly document and preserve artifacts recovered from shipwrecks. These authorities often have established protocols for the handling, cataloging, and storage of artifacts.
In summary, while archaeology students may have the opportunity to participate in dive projects involving shipwrecks, the legal retention of shipwreck coins and other artifacts is subject to specific laws, regulations, and agreements. The focus is generally on the documentation, preservation, and study of artifacts rather than personal ownership.
This AI generated info is so vague and general that it isn't useful. All it basically says is, "laws vary by jurisdiction," which is true. But, if the insinuation here is that archaeology students at a field school may in some jurisdictions be able to retain coins, that's not correct. You won't find a university associated field school that allows students to keep artifacts. Were such a thing to happen, it would be a scandal. Professional reputations would be ruined, and it's possible that people would experience career-changing consequences.

There are dozens of decent field schools for undergraduate and graduate students out there. Some are better than others, but any organization that allows students to keep artifacts of any kind, even temporarily, would be quickly criticized and probably wouldn't exist for very long (and if operating under permit from a state/federal government or on government property, it could be a crime). There are field schools that take place on private property, but in most states in the US, with the exception of human remains, artifacts remain the property of the landowner (this isn't true in many other countries, where antiquities may be owned or regulated by the government). But, students keeping artifacts from a field school or other professional study is not only unethical, but also kind of pointless and stupid. In the US, most artifacts from private property are unregulated and legally bought and sold and all the time. It's easy and not that expensive to buy an artifact if someone really wants to have one. And most archaeologists who regularly do fieldwork aren't particularly enamored with artifacts in the same way collectors and some avocational folks are. There's nothing wrong with admiring artifacts or even wanting to own them. I'm just saying that it's easy to buy them, so it's pretty pointless to steal them.

Anyhow, I know that most people on this board don't have a favorable opinion of me. But, I do know a heck of a lot about the laws surrounding the ownership and sale of artifacts (from terrestrial sites as well as shipwrecks, which are often different animals under the law), and most of the laws are pretty straightforward. I also know a heck of a lot about field school, having participated in them as a student and as an instructor many times. I only know of one student who tried to keep some artifacts on the sly, and it was quite the learning experience for him.

tl;dr: no, student archaeologists do not get to keep coins (and if they were given coins or took them, it would be unethical at best and illegal at worst).
 

MiddenMonster

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I only know of one student who tried to keep some artifacts on the sly, and it was quite the learning experience for him.
Does that mean they don't keep them, or you know of only one student who got caught? I'm guessing that short of a daily strip search when leaving the site, there is no way to keep eyes on everyone all the time and you have to hope that everyone is honest. But I'm also guessing that there are a fair number of students who are willing to keister a coin or two.
 

TheRealTim

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Does that mean they don't keep them, or you know of only one student who got caught? I'm guessing that short of a daily strip search when leaving the site, there is no way to keep eyes on everyone all the time and you have to hope that everyone is honest. But I'm also guessing that there are a fair number of students who are willing to keister a coin or two.
I was an instructor at a field school and an undergraduate student brought some non-diagnostic pottery sherds back to his room. He was basically a kid. They hadn't been assigned FS numbers, bagged, etc. He didn't have a plan for them, and he was acting out of ignorance rather than malice, as sometimes happens with young and inexperienced people. I had a talk with him, as did the project director, and it didn't happen again. I didn't really keep in touch with him but last I saw he was still working in archaeology. This was more than 20 years ago. Most archaeology students have decided to pursue a career in archaeology. People working toward a career goal don't usually do unethical things relative to that pursuit, no matter what field they're in.

I think the belief that archaeologists (even students) steal artifacts is a presumption made by some non-archaeologists who are hobbyists or see artifacts as trinkets or treasure. In my experience those people hold negative views of professional archaeologists because of how laws work, more or less. I won't beat that horse because everyone gets it. I honestly don't know any archaeologists that keep artifacts on display in their house or anything like that. I mean, if you're a mechanic you don't keep pistons or headlights on your shelf or hang gaskets on your walls. I've been accused of the same kind of stuff (including stealing/keeping coins, which is wild. I've never studied or had much of an interest in coins), and if you were to walk through my house you wouldn't know I was archaeologist. You'd see a lot of toys and music stuff, but no artifacts.
 

MiddenMonster

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I think the belief that archaeologists (even students) steal artifacts is a presumption made by some non-archaeologists who are hobbyists or see artifacts as trinkets or treasure. In my experience those people hold negative views of professional archaeologists because of how laws work, more or less.
I don't think that it is so much that people think archaeologists keep articles for themselves. I think it is because archaeologists don't want others, i.e. private sector/commercial interests to keep them, and tend to support laws that keep them from doing so. And it's not just archaeologists. This attitude could be expanded to The Science™ in general, as well. Marine biologists don't want commercial exploitation of resources on the ocean floor. And now, astrophysicists are upset about commercial exploitation of the moon's resources and lunar colonization, arguing that it could screw up their deep space research.

I've made no secret that I believe if you find something on your own property or in international waters it should be yours. Period. If you want to loan, give or sell it to a museum, fine. If you want to keep it or sell it to the highest bidder, that's fine, too. The Triceratops skeleton known as Big John is another example of the feud going on. Dude finds it, excavates it and sells it, and the paleontologist is pissed because it's a commercial venture. But the bottom line is that the universe exists first and foremost for individuals, i.e. the private sector, and governments and other public institutions should be there to serve those interests. For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of government grants, either. There are plenty of multi-billionaires and wealthy corporations around the world that are more than capable of funding all the research people want to do, and they could get a pretty good return on their investment for a lot of it. I don't see why the public should be funding how much cocaine a trans rat from a marginalized sub-species has to do before its libido goes down the crapper.
 

TheRealTim

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I don't think that it is so much that people think archaeologists keep articles for themselves. I think it is because archaeologists don't want others, i.e. private sector/commercial interests to keep them, and tend to support laws that keep them from doing so. And it's not just archaeologists. This attitude could be expanded to The Science™ in general, as well. Marine biologists don't want commercial exploitation of resources on the ocean floor. And now, astrophysicists are upset about commercial exploitation of the moon's resources and lunar colonization, arguing that it could screw up their deep space research.

I've made no secret that I believe if you find something on your own property or in international waters it should be yours. Period. If you want to loan, give or sell it to a museum, fine. If you want to keep it or sell it to the highest bidder, that's fine, too. The Triceratops skeleton known as Big John is another example of the feud going on. Dude finds it, excavates it and sells it, and the paleontologist is pissed because it's a commercial venture. But the bottom line is that the universe exists first and foremost for individuals, i.e. the private sector, and governments and other public institutions should be there to serve those interests. For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of government grants, either. There are plenty of multi-billionaires and wealthy corporations around the world that are more than capable of funding all the research people want to do, and they could get a pretty good return on their investment for a lot of it. I don't see why the public should be funding how much cocaine a trans rat from a marginalized sub-species has to do before its libido goes down the crapper.
That's fair. Archaeologists and "treasure hunters" and SOME collectors simply have different perspectives, opinions, and beliefs when it comes to ownership of artifacts. There is a whole segment of archaeological literature dealing with "ownership of the past," and it's not a superficial "we get to have and study this and you don't" discussion. There are ethical and legal discussions to be sure, but less recognized outside of the discipline are the moral, religious, and cultural positions held by Native Americans and other indigenous groups that have been historically ignored. I think it's accurate to say that professional archaeologists are more aware of these beliefs and therefore more conversant in them than hobbyists or avocational archaeologists, but it's also true that archaeology as a discipline isn't usually great at public outreach (in my opinion. YMMV). Lots of interesting discussions and papers/articles on that topic. It's more philosophical and ethical thank legal, but that's part of it, too.

Archaeologists hold diverse opinions on "ownership of the past" and rules/guidelines established by states and professional organizations. There isn't a monolithic adherence to or belief in organizational guidance. Google the recent Southeastern Archaeological Conference discussion on imagery of funerary objects in its journal for one example.

I'll look up Big John; I haven't heard about that.

I don't disagree with you re: private property rights, with some nuanced exceptions like human remains. Personally, I don't see the appeal of commercializing artifacts, but I don't have a problem with people selling their own property. I've seen some amazing private collections, some of which have been used for research purposes by professionals. Most of the folks who go to artifact shows and buy/sell artifacts do everything on the up-and-up, but there's a segment of folks who buy/tell/trade illegally acquired antiquities (state and federal lands, for example), and of course that's bad news. Laws are laws, and whether we like them or not we have to follow them. Or try to get them changed. But our political system is built on dollars and spreading them around, and you have to have lots of dollars to get laws made or changed most of the time.

In my opinion, wrecks in international waters are a little more complicated because of the claims and rights of sovereign nations. Even professional archaeologists must adhere to the SMCA, for example. I'm sure not everyone loves that.

Government funding and its appropriate uses is a matter of political philosophy, so maybe we should take that to another board, haha!
 

MiddenMonster

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That's fair. Archaeologists and "treasure hunters" and SOME collectors simply have different perspectives, opinions, and beliefs when it comes to ownership of artifacts. There is a whole segment of archaeological literature dealing with "ownership of the past," and it's not a superficial "we get to have and study this and you don't" discussion.
I don't disagree with you re: private property rights, with some nuanced exceptions like human remains. Personally, I don't see the appeal of commercializing artifacts, but I don't have a problem with people selling their own property. I've seen some amazing private collections, some of which have been used for research purposes by professionals.

Who owns the past? Who owns the property? The answer is the same for both questions, with the exception of human remains and hazardous materials. I would argue that in many, if not most cases that artifacts in the hands of private collectors are cared for better than those in the hands of museums and university anthropology departments. Outside of those that are on public display, how many artifacts are degrading in basement boxes stacked to the ceiling and waiting for a government grant to be properly curated, studied or displayed? Ownership imbues responsibility. That's just as true for artifacts as it is for owning vs. renting a house.

I'll look up Big John; I haven't heard about that.

You can click on the link I provided above and watch the entire episode of Secrets of the Dead. It's a pretty good story about how this tug of war plays out between the various entities across the scientific/private/government spectrum. In the end, the little kiddos win in this story. The crotchety paleontologist lost out because it was sold to a private collector. They guy who found it lost out when he had to sell it for a fraction of its worth because he needed money. The auction house won big because it sold for almost $8 million, close to 4 times what they expected. And the new owner put it on loan in a children's museum in Florida for 3 years. What happens after that? I don't know. That episode shows a lot of large dinosaur skeletons displayed in private homes. But your house would have to be pretty big to display the largest triceratops skeleton ever found. How many shipwreck/salvage hunters have the actual restored 16th century ship on display in their house as opposed to the bell, cannon or anchor? Probably not many. Those that do most likely have it in a private museum they own and work hard to draw in paying visitors and preserve their investment.

In my opinion, wrecks in international waters are a little more complicated because of the claims and rights of sovereign nations.
But it shouldn't be complicated at all. In international waters it should belong to whoever lays their briny hands on it first. That's a lot more straightforward and honest than trying to determine if a 16th century Spanish shipwreck carrying Aztec gold belongs to Spain, Mexico or the civilization that doesn't exist anymore. Who owns the past? The smiling dude who retrieved it.

Government funding and its appropriate uses is a matter of political philosophy, so maybe we should take that to another board, haha!
Not really. It's a matter of a government entity and a quasi-government entity teaming up and working against the interests of a private entity. The same shipwreck/salvage hunters who are trying to make a living are paying taxes that are being used against their interests. They may get paid for doing the actual salvage work, but they are basically relegated to being the Grubhub and DoorDash folks in the equation. Universities with multi-billion dollar endowments shouldn't be getting government grant money to do what private companies are out there raising money and investing their own sweat to do. There is an entire filed called contract law that can sort this out. A university meets with someone who found, or is looking for a shipwreck. They negotiate terms. You sign. You dine. If terms can't be worked out, there are plenty of other universities and salvage companies out there who can take a whack at it. It's actually pretty simple.
 

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A lot of Native American history is on private land.
 

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