Re: Alignment of Weavers Needle and 4 Peaks and other questions (LONG reply)
Greetings friends,
Blindbowman wrote:
Oro where did Peck get that clue ?
Hello Blindbowman – and honestly, I do not know where Peck got his information from, however this dovetails well with what others who knew Waltz said, that the mine entrance was quite small, NOT a large tunnel or huge funnel-shaped pit etc.
Gollum (Mike) wrote:
Hey Oro,
I don't remember (and am too lazy to search), but what do you think about Jesuit mining in Primeria Alta?
Best,
Mike
Howdy Mike! Okay, I will take the bait – but my answer might surprise you.
Jesuits mining in Pimeria Alta? I am convinced that the Jesuit missionaries were in fact mining for gold and silver in Pimeria Alta, and making use of some of the local Pima and Opata Indians to do the work, much as they also put them to work raising cattle and sheep, planting crops of grains etc. I do not ascribe ALL of the early mining done in Pimeria Alta to the Jesuits however, as more of the mining was actually done by Spanish who were “in the charge” of local Jesuit priests, which when later researched is mistakenly confabulated into the Jesuits “owning” and operating so many mines, when in fact their own church-owned operations were smaller and only a small fraction of the total mining activity going on. I am also aware that the brotherhood of Jesus today claims they were always in utter poverty, operated and owned NO mines, etc and there is some bit of truth in this, for we only need look at the efforts on the part of Father Kino to protect his Indian charges from the Spanish colonial law of “encomiendo” or forced labor, as well as the abuse of the Indians by Spanish colonists. However a cursory reading through the Jesuit Relacion(s) of the period points up how the many missions were struggling to get their individual missions to be profitable, be it through the fur trade, cotton, grain or mining. The repeated accusations against the Jesuits by Spanish in New Spain led to repeated orders of the king of Spain to get them to stop, and in the end led to their expulsion. The fact that the Pimas rose up in revolt against the Jesuits on more than one occasion is fair proof that the Jesuits were using the Indios for forced labor, so clearly not all of the Padres were so kind-hearted as good father Kino.
Then we come to the question of Jesuits mining in the Superstitions – and I am convinced there is no evidence of any Jesuit presence in that region. I know, there are plenty of folks who believe otherwise, and see Jesuit workings in every little trace of a wheel rut in that desert standing on end, the same folks who seem to utterly ignore ALL of the activity done by ANGLO prospectors who were out searching for the Lost Dutchman AFTER the death of Waltz, and these fellows did a lot of work. Their prospect pits and tunnels are dotted all over the range, and quite frequently someone finds one of these old tunnels or pits and, as Bullwinkle would say, “PRESTO”!!! The person then announces to the public how he or she has "found the Lost Dutchman mine", when in fact all they have found is the old workings of a previous Dutch-hunter, who was there a century before them. So many modern treasure hunters vastly over-estimate the activities and abilities of the early Spanish, and even more vastly UNDER-estimate the activities and abilities of the later Anglo-American prospectors, whose work is far larger and more widespread, by a factor of at least 100 times the activities of the early Spanish.
Blindbowman wrote:
the reason i ask Oro where Peck had made that stated , that was because he is desrcibing the cave enterence not the pit !....and its the size of a 75 gallon barrel standing on end
Well my friend Blindbowman, in Peck’s words, “Waltz’s mine had an opening no bigger than a barrel” – a sentence which clearly describes a MINE opening and specifically that mine attributed to Waltz, not a cave. An old Florence resident said that Waltz had to crawl to get into his mine, and remember Waltz told his friend the boy Reiney, (Petrasch) quote:
“Reiney, you better listen!
That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!”
We get a LOT of cross-mixing of tales and clues, and in fact I would conclude there are several old mines in the Superstitions – one with a rose quartz-gold ore, one with a black quartz-gold ore and one with a white quartz-gold ore. These DIFFERENT mines are in different locations, and look different. Only the mine of Waltz was specifically and deliberately hidden, and it is also the
smallest of the three. The black ore with spots of gold “like stars in the sky” is the mine found and worked by Ely and Bark,while the rose quartz was the mine found and worked by Wagoner, and clues that lead to these mines will only confuse someone searching for the white quartz gold ore of Jacob Waltz. This little fact, that there are DIFFERENT mines in the region, has undoubtedly caused a lot of Dutch-hunters to waste a lot of time and effort. I don't think the mine found by Joe Deering is the Dutchman's mine either, and the fact that his ore samples were of notably lower grade supports that contention.
Colorado Mine Hunter wrote:
Question: Has anything ever been written or heard about where the Peraltas may have put all the tailings from there mining efforts?
Hello again my friend CMH,
The Peralta legends can only be traced back as far as Barry Storm and Walt Bicknell, both of whom were writing about the LDM in the period AFTER the death of Jacob Waltz. A distinguished local club has encouraged the growth and continuance of these Peralta legends, which has not helped matters in getting to the truth. You have hit upon one of the huge problems with the Peralta legends – that such a large mining operation with SO many men, women, cattle, sheep etc MUST have left rather large traces of their presence – and there are no real traces of any such presence. So many bits of evidence in the Superstitions are mis-identified it is a shame, such as a “Spanish camp” in a site where trees were cut for the Silver King mine in the late 1800s, not by any Spanish or Mexican mining group, or the “Spanish hieroglyphics” in the Supers which can be traced to none other than our old friend Barry Storm. Even the “massacre” is more likely to have been an unlucky party of Pima Indians passing through, rather than any party of Mexicans, though some members here will vigorously oppose this viewpoint. If there really WERE a large mining party of Mexicans under the leadership of Peraltas, and they were attacked and massacred by Apaches, the Mexican government would have been notified (Apache attacks were NOT kept secret, even in wartime) – even though the time period when this supposedly happened put it squarely in the Mexican-American war, which only makes the idea of a party of Mexicans crossing the battle lines of two enemy armies all the more un-likely.
CMH also wrote:
even if they were fairly short, that would equate to quite an excavation and a large volume of loose rock to hide. Have such been found at all and if so, where?
You have already hit upon a key problem in the Peralta legends, that such large mining operations by definition leave behind much evidence, which even energetic Apaches will not make so much efforts to conceal.
Blindbowman wrote:
you wont find tailing pies near the dutchman mine its about 12 ft deep and 6 by 6 wide ..it was coverd over but had fallen in but i recoverd it lastyear ....
Well that is quite a remark my friend, you personally covered over the Lost Dutchman mine, last year? Then you must have taken out at least a single sample of the ore, which can then be shown in photos right? How can you be certain that what you found IS the Lost Dutchman mine, and not simply one of the old workings of early Dutch-hunters?
Sorry for the lengthy post, I hope you all have a great day.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
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