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All I Can Say Is Wow and It Hurts...

$ilver$urfer

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Well, it happened folks, I was about an arms length away from the score of the century (i.e. - maybe even better than ABMs ginormous score last week, but probably not!!!) :thumbsup: I was in a local branch that always saves half dollars for me and I get in there 5 minutes before closing to pick up my weekly order of dimes. The tellers are all sweethearts and I always bring them chocolates. At any rate, some old lady pushing 80 was with her grandson and they were cashing in over $2000 worth of old rolls of half dollars. The rolls were every color of the rainbow; ones I have never seen before and super old and tattered and had writing on them signifying the year and contents but it was hard for me to read them but I swear I saw good ones. One roll popped open while they were counting them and I thought I saw a 40%er or two in it. In passing I asked the old lady if that was someones collection and with a sad look she said yes, I actually feel bad about asking. :-\

The tellers asked me if I wanted them and I said of course. The bank was closed so they said they need to finalize the counts and I could come in first thing in the morning and buy them. Trusting them because of our great relationship, I left and had visions of sugarplums in my head all night. Needless to say, but I was waiting in the bank parking lot 15 minutes before them opened. When I go in the tellers are acting kind of funny and the one girl who said I could buy them was all red in the face and flushed. I asked to buy the half dollars and she said we cannot sell them to you because the rolls were a mess and we need to "verify the counts". I could tell it was a canned response and she seemed really nervous so I offered to buy the rolls off of them for what they paid the lady and she said she couldn't because they needed to verify the count and said the branch manager told us this. I asked to speak with him and he was a bigger guy posturing over me with a real loud, intimidating voice saying we cannot sell you those half dollars until we verify the count of the coins in the rolls. I said the girls always sell me the half dollars and I would gladly incur any losses in any of the rolls were a coin or two short here and there. He said he wouldn't sell them to me. I informed him the tellers said I could come in first thing tomorrow morning and have them and then said isn't it bank policy to sell customers coins upon request if you have them? He ignored the facts and the question and said verbatim, "Listen, I know silver is over $40 an ounce and with that many rolls coming in we need to see and verify what is in those rolls." So you won't sell them to me? "Nope!" He abruptly left to his office and I asked the teller why and she was just shaking her head silently. Needless to say, I called the central customer service line and filed a formal complaint against the manager. I asked them if it was bank policy to have bank employees searching through rolled coin on company time, I also told them what he said about the price of silver and how I felt intimidated during the whole ordeal. We will see what happens...

Could have been the score of the century folks.... :'(

HH,

$ilver$urfer :hello:
 
Upvote 0
jim4silver said:
mts said:
jim4silver said:
$ilver$urfer said:
I guess I never even thought about telling her to take them all to a coin shop or offering to buy them myself...the thought didn't even cross my mind. Does that make me a bad person? :help:
$ilver$urfer :hello:

No you are not a bad person. Although I have much respect for MTS, I disagree that you as a customer need to inform the old lady of her coins' value. Yes the bank tellers should have said something since the old lady is a customer and they owe her a duty in my opinion. If you were a coin dealer I would say you have a duty to pay a "fair" amount, whatever that is. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but it would be the same if I was at a yard sale and someone had valuable coins, I would buy them for the best price I could get. The caveat to this is if the seller was a friend or family member (that I liked :wink:), then I would pay a more "fair" price.

In my opinion to say it is bad to do this would make CRHing in general bad if you keep the spoils. Just because you don't know who dropped off the coins that you find as a CRHer does not make keeping them any more or less bad than if you know who the depositor is.

Probably in hindsight what I would have done is walk over to her and offer her twice face and tell her you are a coin collector and would love the coins. She would have probably gone for that and would have got double what the bank gave her. Assuming there was some silver you would have made a gain.

Jim

I don't see a conflict between informing someone you meet face to face in a bank, and keeping the spoils of CRH'ing. Once that person leaves the bank, those coins are now bank property. I have no problem with buying silver at face value from a bank. It no longer belongs to the person who traded it in a that point.

When you get silver coins from the bank thorough CRHing, you are still profiting from someone's lack of knowledge of the coins value and thus their loss is your gain, you just don't know who that person is and there is a middleman (the bank) separating you both. Yes it is more removed than the situation where you see the person dropping them off and wait till they leave the bank then you run over and buy them, but it is not wholly different in the sense you are profiting due to the same reason in both cases. I understand your moral view, but it would seem to me that if profiting off someone's lack of knowledge would bad in one instance it would be bad in both.

In your position a person sort of has an ongoing duty to everyone they see to let them know what their coins are worth. Let's say you are in a coin shop you have never been to looking around and someone brings in a coin that you know is worth $1000 generally speaking, and the store owner tells the person he will pay them $400. In that instance are you going to interfere and tell the customer that they could get more selling elsewhere? If you answer no, is it a matter of degree when you should inform the person re: the value of their coins?

Jim

Yes, it is a matter of degrees. If I am at a bank and I can inform someone directly I will try to do so. The bank is not trying to run a business by buying and selling coins. If I am in a pawn shop and the owner is offering an obscenely low amount, I will try to warn the seller if I can do so without incurring the pawn shop owner's wrath. If instead, the pawn shop owner offers a "fair price" (which includes making a reasonable profit) then I will obviously not say anything. In between these two extremes it will be a judgement call. But I will also keep in mind that the pawn shop is in business to make a profit off of buying and selling coins. A bank is not.

This actually happened to me once but I didn't have to say anything (yet I was prepared to do so). A lady was selling about 20 Franklin halves and the pawn shop owner offered her $1.00 each for them (they were worth about $6 each at the time). He told her he always offers $1.00 because they are hard to get rid of and aren't worth much. This of course was a complete lie. I was prepared to intervene but she refused the offer anyway and left the store. I did not try to stop her and try to bargain with her but probably should have.

As for making a profit off of someone else's lack of knowledge, it isn't that cut and dried. When I buy silver from APMEX and believe that it is going to go up (and it ultimately does) isn't that also potentially profitting off of someone else's lack of knowledge? How about buying a stock that I feel is going to rise? Keep in mind that those silver coins could also go down in value. Also, how much profit are we talking about? Obscene profit is different from a marginal profit. So as long as I am buying from someone who either has no interest in making a profit off of the sale (such as a bank when CRH'ing) or buying off of some who should know better anyway (as in a coin dealer) then I see no problem with paying lower than market rates. But I will not personally take advantage of someone who doesn't know better. For example, if I go to a garage sale and someone has silver halves for $1.00 each, I will offer them more for them and let them know that they are selling themselves short. Don't get me wrong. I'll make a profit. But they will also be able to look up the true value afterward and feel good that we both got a fair deal.

I just think that is the right way to live your life. If someone else disagrees then I don't think less of them. They are entitled to live their life the way they want to. I know that there are a lot of people who post in the garage sale forum who are happy to pay way below market value to someone who doesn't know any better. If that's what they want to do then fine. I couldn't do it.

When I got my first "real" job, my future boss asked me on the phone how much I'd like to make. I told him about $25K. He told me that I was selling myself short and offered me $34K which I later found out was the true market wage for such a position. He easily could have saved the company $9K a year and paid me what I asked for. That was 14 years ago. I have followed him to two companies now and consider him to be one of the most trustworthy individuals I have ever met.

I'm certainly no saint. This is just one hangup that I have. I'm not even a very honest person when it comes down to other aspects of my life. But I can't watch some old lady give up her husband's coin collection for face value and not try to do something about it. Once the bank owns the coins though the gloves are off. :icon_thumleft:
 
mts said:
jim4silver said:
mts said:
jim4silver said:
$ilver$urfer said:
I guess I never even thought about telling her to take them all to a coin shop or offering to buy them myself...the thought didn't even cross my mind. Does that make me a bad person? :help:
$ilver$urfer :hello:

No you are not a bad person. Although I have much respect for MTS, I disagree that you as a customer need to inform the old lady of her coins' value. Yes the bank tellers should have said something since the old lady is a customer and they owe her a duty in my opinion. If you were a coin dealer I would say you have a duty to pay a "fair" amount, whatever that is. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but it would be the same if I was at a yard sale and someone had valuable coins, I would buy them for the best price I could get. The caveat to this is if the seller was a friend or family member (that I liked :wink:), then I would pay a more "fair" price.

In my opinion to say it is bad to do this would make CRHing in general bad if you keep the spoils. Just because you don't know who dropped off the coins that you find as a CRHer does not make keeping them any more or less bad than if you know who the depositor is.

Probably in hindsight what I would have done is walk over to her and offer her twice face and tell her you are a coin collector and would love the coins. She would have probably gone for that and would have got double what the bank gave her. Assuming there was some silver you would have made a gain.

Jim

I don't see a conflict between informing someone you meet face to face in a bank, and keeping the spoils of CRH'ing. Once that person leaves the bank, those coins are now bank property. I have no problem with buying silver at face value from a bank. It no longer belongs to the person who traded it in a that point.

When you get silver coins from the bank thorough CRHing, you are still profiting from someone's lack of knowledge of the coins value and thus their loss is your gain, you just don't know who that person is and there is a middleman (the bank) separating you both. Yes it is more removed than the situation where you see the person dropping them off and wait till they leave the bank then you run over and buy them, but it is not wholly different in the sense you are profiting due to the same reason in both cases. I understand your moral view, but it would seem to me that if profiting off someone's lack of knowledge would bad in one instance it would be bad in both.

In your position a person sort of has an ongoing duty to everyone they see to let them know what their coins are worth. Let's say you are in a coin shop you have never been to looking around and someone brings in a coin that you know is worth $1000 generally speaking, and the store owner tells the person he will pay them $400. In that instance are you going to interfere and tell the customer that they could get more selling elsewhere? If you answer no, is it a matter of degree when you should inform the person re: the value of their coins?

Jim

Yes, it is a matter of degrees. If I am at a bank and I can inform someone directly I will try to do so. The bank is not trying to run a business by buying and selling coins. If I am in a pawn shop and the owner is offering an obscenely low amount, I will try to warn the seller if I can do so without incurring the pawn shop owner's wrath. If instead, the pawn shop owner offers a "fair price" (which includes making a reasonable profit) then I will obviously not say anything. In between these two extremes it will be a judgement call. But I will also keep in mind that the pawn shop is in business to make a profit off of buying and selling coins. A bank is not.

This actually happened to me once but I didn't have to say anything (yet I was prepared to do so). A lady was selling about 20 Franklin halves and the pawn shop owner offered her $1.00 each for them (they were worth about $6 each at the time). He told her he always offers $1.00 because they are hard to get rid of and aren't worth much. This of course was a complete lie. I was prepared to intervene but she refused the offer anyway and left the store. I did not try to stop her and try to bargain with her but probably should have.

As for making a profit off of someone else's lack of knowledge, it isn't that cut and dried. When I buy silver from APMEX and believe that it is going to go up (and it ultimately does) isn't that also potentially profitting off of someone else's lack of knowledge? How about buying a stock that I feel is going to rise? Keep in mind that those silver coins could also go down in value. Also, how much profit are we talking about? Obscene profit is different from a marginal profit. So as long as I am buying from someone who either has no interest in making a profit off of the sale (such as a bank when CRH'ing) or buying off of some who should know better anyway (as in a coin dealer) then I see no problem with paying lower than market rates. But I will not personally take advantage of someone who doesn't know better. For example, if I go to a garage sale and someone has silver halves for $1.00 each, I will offer them more for them and let them know that they are selling themselves short. Don't get me wrong. I'll make a profit. But they will also be able to look up the true value afterward and feel good that we both got a fair deal.

I just think that is the right way to live your life. If someone else disagrees then I don't think less of them. They are entitled to live their life the way they want to. I know that there are a lot of people who post in the garage sale forum who are happy to pay way below market value to someone who doesn't know any better. If that's what they want to do then fine. I couldn't do it.

When I got my first "real" job, my future boss asked me on the phone how much I'd like to make. I told him about $25K. He told me that I was selling myself short and offered me $34K which I later found out was the true market wage for such a position. He easily could have saved the company $9K a year and paid me what I asked for. That was 14 years ago. I have followed him to two companies now and consider him to be one of the most trustworthy individuals I have ever met.

I'm certainly no saint. This is just one hangup that I have. I'm not even a very honest person when it comes down to other aspects of my life. But I can't watch some old lady give up her husband's coin collection for face value and not try to do something about it. Once the bank owns the coins though the gloves are off. :icon_thumleft:

Very good points MTS.


Jim
 

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