Any chance on an id of these pewter finds?

[aquachigger]

Long time lurker here. You guys are amazing with your id's! I have learned tons reading this site over the years. I found these two items many years ago at an old home site here in western Maryland. Detecting finds start out in the very early 1700's in this area. I've shown them to many diggers and posted them on a forum or two, and no one has any idea what they are for sure. Any of you have a clue as to what they might be? Thanks...Beau

 

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[IronSpike]

Now that is cool!

Cornucopia design appears relatively common for 'tussy mussy' or posy holder. Some of the them quite elaborate designs:

http://marinni.livejournal.com/447847.html

 

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[NGE]

I think Woody50 is owed a green check on this one, although I suggested a "snuff snorter".... and Breezie suggested a " double nostril snorter "........NGE

 

[Breezie]

I think Woody50 is owed a green check on this one, although I suggested a "snuff snorter".... and Breezie suggested a " double nostril snorter "........NGE

Yes, NGE, you nailed it in the beginning, I just put the cherry on top!

IronSpike, you posted a GREAT website for the posey holders.

Breezie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think Woody50 is owed a green check on this one, although I suggested a "snuff snorter".... and Breezie suggested a " double nostril snorter "........NGE

Woody50 said hes not sure what they are. Did I miss something?

"Double nostril snorter" sounds plausible but Im thinking large nostrils.

Its odd that Woody's has 2 different size openings.

 

[woody50]

I think Woody50 is owed a green check on this one, although I suggested a "snuff snorter".... and Breezie suggested a " double nostril snorter "........NGE

Woody50 said hes not sure what they are. Did I miss something?

"Double nostril holder" sounds plausible but Im thinking large nostrils.

No you did not miss anything. I mentioned that I thought that the determination back when I found these was a flower holder.

Why, well back in the 18th century in Amsterdam everything was dumped into the canals, even dead horses and other animals, not to mention the sewer emptied into them. Also it was just very dirty. I was trying to find an article I was just reading about it, got the book, now have to find the page. So these could have been used for perfume or a flower with a strong smell to it to keep away the bad smells.

But its been years since I have seen them, and I guess I did not keep the determination, usually I do, but can't find it anymore. So I have to try to find it within all the other finds. Maybe I just saved it at a wrong place or something. Still looking.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

No you did not miss anything. I mentioned that I thought that the determination back when I found these was a flower holder. But its been years since I have seen them, and I guess I did not keep the determination, usually I do, but can't find it anymore. So I have to try to find it within all the other finds. Maybe I just saved it at a wrong place or something. Still looking.

Thanks for posting the pics. Its a match for sure. Usually when another member has found the same item it means its solvable. I searched antique double nostril snorters but couldnt find anything but modern. But at this point I dont know either.

 

[Breezie]

I'm thinking it is a possibility it could be either/or, but am leaning toward snuff snorter or opiate since the bottom is larger and more rounded than posey holders. Most posey holder bottoms go to a point, thus if you put snuff or any powdery substance in it, it would be hard to get it out when it settled into the bottom point. With these 2 items, the bottom is basically rounded, which, I think was made that way for a purpose.

BCH, I couldn't find any pics of any Victorian Snuff Snorters either, nor could I find any 'double' posey holders; so I guess we're at a stalemate now. Breezie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm thinking it is a possibility it could be either/or, but am leaning toward snuff snorter or opiate since the bottom is larger and more rounded than posey holders. Most posey holder bottoms go to a point, thus if you put snuff or any powdery substance in it, it would be hard to get it out when it settled into the bottom point. With these 2 items, the bottom is basically rounded, which, I think was made that way for a purpose.

(pics from IPs link) The looped bottom looks as if it may be to hold with a finger to bring up to the nose to smell (or snort)

 

[NGE]

At least this one is more solvable than those dang " Pignuts "........NGE

 

[woody50]

I think Woody50 is owed a green check on this one, although I suggested a "snuff snorter".... and Breezie suggested a " double nostril snorter "........NGE

Woody50 said hes not sure what they are. Did I miss something?
"Double nostril snorter" sounds plausible but Im thinking large nostrils.
Its odd that Woody's has 2 different size openings.

Well BCH, you have good eyes! They are of different size, although not much bigger/smaller.

The one with the ball at the end :
small hole 11mm or .433"
large hole 12.5mm or .492"

I was visiting my tin restorer this afternoon, he agreed with me about the determination : 18th century and flower holders. Still looking for my text...

The one with the point on the end:
small hole 12mm or .472"
large hole cannot be measured.

Aquachigger, can you measure your?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I wonder if the different sizes are just poor castings?

 

[aquachigger]

WOW! I can't believe you have a matching set Woody50. Unfortunately, mine are a little smashed and oblong, but the holes are definitely different sizes. The smaller measures out at 12.05mm and the larger averages 13.70mm. Why two different shapes (and different size holes) for basically the same item? Interesting indeed.

 

[kyphote]

My nose is fairly big and according to my caliper, my nostrils measure 9mm at full stretch. I never thought I'd put a caliper in my nose nor announce the results but, hey, anything for science. Unless they had bigger nostrils back then I think snuff is out.

 

[woody50]

WOW! I can't believe you have a matching set Woody50. Unfortunately, mine are a little smashed and oblong, but the holes are definitely different sizes. The smaller measures out at 12.05mm and the larger averages 13.70mm. Why two different shapes (and different size holes) for basically the same item? Interesting indeed.

Well I did not believe that they would be the same size anyway, what's a few mm anyway? But understand these were not a one time thing made with one mold, these were fairly common things made by various people back then. Just like every tin plate or cup made back then, if not made from the same mold the size would be different. Everyone copied each other back then, just like they do nowadays.

I have been looking at the items (don't know yet what to call them) and think myself that the 19th century is a better determination of the manufacturing date, they are just made too darn good.

 

[kyphote]

Any more thoughts on this? Think people. Think!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It cannot be for measuring if the two are connected.

 

[Breezie]

My nose is fairly big and according to my caliper, my nostrils measure 9mm at full stretch. I never thought I'd put a caliper in my nose nor announce the results but, hey, anything for science. Unless they had bigger nostrils back then I think snuff is out.

Kyphote; now that is too funny! I only hate I was not there with a digital camera!

Breezie

 

[woody50]

I think Woody50 is owed a green check on this one, although I suggested a "snuff snorter".... and Breezie suggested a " double nostril snorter "........NGE

Yes I believe now that they are a posy holder, only made for the common people (tin) and not the rich (silver and gold).

Like the posy BigCypressHunter mentioned, comes from the song, "Ring around the rosy".

And what does that mean?

It revolves around the bubonic plague that hit Europe long ago, that's where the "ashes, ashes, we all fall down" comes in.

1."Ring around the rosy" was meant to speak of a red ring that would form around a persons neck or any part of their skin from the plague.
2."Pocket full of posies" meant a pocket that was full of a fragrant flower to try to mask the smell of the dying person.
3."Ashes, ashes we all fall down" meant the final stage of the plague and then death.

And we kids sung that when I was young and had many laughs, but did not know what it meant! Funny.

This holder was hung around the neck, filled with a bit of water and a couple of flowers. The scent kept away the bad smells.
By the way, in the 19th and 18th centuries there were many rotten smells around..... Sometimes even executed people were put
on crosses on the canal banks to rot away.

 

[woody50]

I wonder if the different sizes are just poor castings?

Not different castings, differerent molds. They were made by more than one factory/person back them.

For instance the one with the ball is smaller than the one with the point.
length (top to opposite ball) width (across holes) mass
Ball = 55.8mm 37.3mm 33.16 gram
point= 60.7mm 40.7mm 37.26 gram

 

[kyphote]

I wonder if the different sizes are just poor castings?

Not different castings, differerent molds. They were made by more than one factory/person back them.

For instance the one with the ball is smaller than the one with the point.
length (top to opposite ball) width (across holes) mass
Ball = 55.8mm 37.3mm 33.16 gram
point= 60.7mm 40.7mm 37.26 gram

Great info! Any confirmation pics? I'm completely convinced this is a posy holder at this stage.