Any help on this bottle ID?

[skite]

Hello All -
I'm looking for any information at all on this bottle. It's part of a large collection of bottles and assorted glass ware that spans from the 1830's to the 1970's. It's a bit generic looking but maybe someone can help me narrow things down a bit. There are no identifying letters, numbers, or marks on this bottle at all. Thanks!

skite

 

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[timekiller]

I'm going with a Southern Comfort Bottle.Will just say I've held a few of them & leave it at that. At least it's what I think of first either way it's not a old bottle.
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It depends upon what you consider old. Its older than me. Its definitely a pre-prohibition cork top whiskey that can be further dated by the mould seams.

 

[elfman325]

Appraising Antique Bottles

Go to determining bottle values. Hopefully that helps.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Actually its listed in my TOC Glass Manufacturers Catalog as a "Delaware Brandy." Its over 100 years old (older than me). It sure looked like an old Bourbon.

"Mould No. 453--- 4 to the Gallon------- List per Gross $33 - Packed In 50 1/2 Gross Boxes"

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

How many bottles is a Gross?

It may be saying List $33 per Gross 50 bottles packed in 1/2-Gross Boxes.

But those would be expensive bottles.

 

[Mackaydon]

BCH,
144 items in a gross; 12 dozen.
Don..
Edit: But maybe 'gross' in that context refers to Before any Expense.

 

[timekiller]

I still don't think it's old.
1)- Glass to clear
2)-no bubbles
3)-the little ring mark on the shoulder
4)-theres a bottle I'll call it vintage that I've seen a Number of times that looks just like it from what I can tell but I just can't think of what it was (might even be some kind of wine) bottom line is there is something funny about it's look to me.Maybe it's just because I'm use to only saving bottles that I know are old or worth something which that one would not be.Reasons are ........
1)- it's clear
2)-not even a label which is what it would of had because it's not old enough to be embossed.
3)-plain out common bottle period
I've dug thousands of bottles over the years & don't even bother to pick up ones like that.


Saying all this & this being what I believe & how I collect bottles (which are only ones I dig or find myself) I will try to help you out but I need close up shots of the very bottom & all other places I've circled on your bottle.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

My 1905 Glass Manufacturers Catalog has every shape and size available in the early 20th century along with the prices and most are clear. It matches the Delaware Brandy Liquor bottle. I saved it from the now defunct Antique Bottle Collectors Assoc of Florida when it broke up in the 70's..

Around 1915 the use of manganese was discontinued and selenium became the chemical of choice as a clarifying & stabilizing agent. This could explain the clear glass. It appears in mint condition.

These bottles can be ordered embossed or labeled later by the Liquor distributer. Labels have been used since the Civil War.

Myself, I save all early 20th century cork tops. I know you find much older stuff timekiller and its not the type of bottle that you yourself would save. Its also common and unembossed. I agree unembossed is boring. I dont think you will necessarily see bubbles in all 20th century ABM bottles. I thought however that the ring may be a bubble or defect.

It may help to see a closeup of the mould seam. If the seam goes to the top its ABM if it fades before the top, its hand blown in a mould and pre-1904 approximately. But this is looking more like 1915-1932.

I see no mystery here except the kick up on the bottom that is usually reserved for wines.. but maybe Brandy as well. I cant tell from my book's diagram. As timekiller said, we need closer pics. Is the ring a large bubble or something else? There is a 1950's bottle I used to always find with the ring but I dont think this is it.

If its some kind of modern reproduction, I am not aware of it and always willing to learn and mistakes can easily be made from a small picture. But the What Is It system works and we will find the correct ID in the end.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here a quick example of an early 1900's cork top, clear glass, no bubbles. You can find a million of them online. Vintage Whiskey Bottle- H. W. HUGULEY Co.- 134 CANAL ST. BOSTON-Cork Top | eBay

This appears to be a Brandy which may explain the kicked up bottom.

 

[timekiller]

My 1905 Glass Manufacturers Catalog has every shape and size available in the early 20th century along with the prices and most are clear. It matches the Delaware Brandy Liquor bottle. I saved it from the now defunct Antique Bottle Collectors Assoc of Florida when it broke up in the 70's..

Around 1915 the use of manganese was discontinued and selenium became the chemical of choice as a clarifying & stabilizing agent. This could explain the clear glass. It appears in mint condition.

These bottles can be ordered embossed or labeled later by the Liquor distributer. Labels have been used since the Civil War.

Myself, I save all early 20th century cork tops. I know you find much older stuff timekiller and its not the type of bottle that you yourself would save. Its also common and unembossed. I agree unembossed is boring. I dont think you will necessarily see bubbles in all 20th century ABM bottles. I thought however that the ring may be a bubble or defect.

It may help to see a closeup of the mould seam. If the seam goes to the top its ABM if it fades before the top, its hand blown in a mould and pre-1904 approximately. But this is looking more like 1915-1932.

I see no mystery here except the kick up on the bottom that is usually reserved for wines.. but maybe Brandy as well. I cant tell from my book's diagram. As timekiller said, we need closer pics. Is the ring a large bubble or something else? There is a 1950's bottle I used to always find with the ring but I dont think this is it.

If its some kind of modern reproduction, I am not aware of it and always willing to learn and mistakes can easily be made from a small picture. But the What Is It system works and we will find the correct ID in the end.

Yes BCH,was not trying to down the poster of the thread.More like trying to give advise as if they were going to start collecting bottles to maybe try & go after ones with a little more character.As I know from when I did it that you could use up some space very quick collecting bottles.
Also after a night's sleep the ring on the shoulder looks like something shining through from the bag in the foreground.The bottom still looks to have a slight kick up/bowl shape though.Which don't mean nothing from the pic.cause they still do that today.AS for the common bottle remark sorry about that but that's what any body who are in to bottles any at all is going to tell you about that bottle.As for me saying not old is because it's quite easy here to walk around any old ditches or up dirt roads where people have gone & dumped trash in the past & would expect to see that type of bottle.I've said my peace...........
Take Care,
Pete,

Here's a site that may help you out more .............
Liquor/Spirits Bottles shoulder spirits cylinders

[TD="width: 100%"] Decorative shoulder spirits cylinders: A variation on the fifth/quart cylinder discussed above is a class of somewhat more decorative or ornate containers represented by the quart liquor bottle pictured to the left. These bottles are similar to the above but have fluted or swirled features molded into the shoulder and/or lower neck. Glassmaker names for the many variations of this style were "Fluted Neck Whiskey", "Minnesota Brandy", "Maverick Brandy", "Starlight Brandy", "Chicago Fancy", and most likely others (Illinois Glass Co. 1906; Cumberland Glass 1911; Obear-Nester 1922). Some variations have additional decoration on the lower body near the base; others have the decorative molding just on the neck itself. The pictured quart cylinder liquor bottle was used by the Oregon Importing Company (Portland, OR.) and dates between 1904 and 1915, when statewide Prohibition was effected in Oregon (Thomas 1998). This bottle has an improved-tooled straight brandy finish, has multiple air venting marks almost hidden with the shoulder design, and was blown in a two-piece cup-bottom mold - classic diagnostic features of a post-1900 mouth-blown bottle. Click on the following links for more pictures of this bottle: base view; shoulder, neck, and finish view. Many fluted shoulder liquor bottles have the more gentle slope to the shoulder like the pictured bottle, while other have the more abrupt shoulder like the cylinders discussed in the box above. This particular company noted in their advertising and bottle embossing that they "Neither Rectify Nor Compound" - a reflection of the ongoing battle just after passage of the 1906 Food and Drugs Act between "pure" whiskey producers and the "rectifiers" or "compounders" who blended their whiskey, often with a large proportion of neutral spirits and flavoring compounds. Both were placed on an equal legal footing by the so-called "Taft Decision" of 1909 - a presidential decision that established "standards of identity" for various types of whiskey; many of which are still followed today (Downard 1980). The very common, mouth-blown, pre-Prohibition quart sized liquor bottle to the right with fluted shoulders and lower body is embossed with HAYNER DISTILLING CO. / DISTILLERS & IMPORTERS / DAYTON, OHIO U.S.A. It is also embossed on the base with DESIGN PATENTED / NOV. 30TH 1897 and has a tooled brandy finish, was blown in a cup-mold base, has multiple air venting marks, and manganese decolorized glass that has turned amethyst. These bottles date from between 1898 and 1917 or so with most dating between about 1905 and 1917. This is one of several variations from this very large liquor company that did most of its business through the mail - often to the ever increasing numbers of "dry" states during the noted era. Their popularity was also due to their low prices; they advertised prices of $3.20 postpaid for four full quarts of Hayner Rye Whiskey in 1898 (Preston 2006). The loophole in the law that allowed for their mail order business (the vast majority of Hayner's business) was made illegal with passage of the Webb-Kenyon Interstate Liquor Act of March 1913 which prohibited the shipping of liquor to dry states from "wet" ones, although enforcement of this law did not really occur until about 1917. The substance of this act was included in the 21st Amendment which repealed Prohibition and is still partially in place today (Wilson & Wilson 1968; Downard 1980; Preston 2006). Click on the following links to view more images of this bottle: base view showing the 1897 patent date; close-up of the brandy finish; close-up of the embossing. Dating summary/notes: Mouth-blown cylinder fifth/quart cylinder liquor bottles with fluted or decorative shoulders and/or necks appear to be primarily a product of the early 20th century, with some dating back as early as the 1890s. Mouth-blown versions typically date between 1895 and 1915 (Wilson & Wilson 1968; Barnett 1987). Machine-made cylinder liquor bottles with decorative shoulders/necks were commonly made from the 1910s up until the late 20th century; various types are still made today (e.g., Jack Daniels™ bottles though they are square bodied). Machine-made bottles with the embossing "Federal Law Forbids Sale or Re-use of this Bottle" were made between 1935 and the 1960s. (Note: Like with some of the other early 20th century liquor bottles, decorative shoulder type bottles were also used for sauces, olive oil, vinegar and other liquid to semi-liquid food products during the first few decades of the 20th century [Munsey 1970; Zumwalt 1980]).

[/TD]

 

[skite]

More Information

Hello All - I really appreciate the help on this bottle and here's some background to make things a bit more "clear". The bottle in question comes from underneath a house that was occupied from 1833 to the mid 1970's. Under the house was a pile of bottles, refuse dump, that was in use during the entire period the house was occupied. We have found 1830's bottles and 1970s Coke bottles with a LOT of variety in between. A few items were proving a bit more difficult to pin down hence the SOS. This is also the source of the milkglass toothpick holder that I posted above this particular bottle post. I definitely will update this early next week with new pictures of the bottle showing more detail in the indicated areas. We've been checking mold seams etc. but this one seems a bit odd. Again - you all are a GREAT resource and Thanks for your help! - skite

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

No need to apologize timekiller and you are correct, these bottles will take up a lot of space. But I didnt want to get in to that. Im just making the ID. I have a warehouse full of bottle boxes lol. I get my boxes from liquor stores and I have many. You may not realize how lucky you are timekiller to live in a town where you find "old" bottles and artifacts so easily just laying in any ditch.


I believe my ID is correct its a pre-1932 brandy bottle. The trade name of this shape is "Delaware Brandy." I think the glass manufacturers page I posted speaks for itself. Its an identical match. Not that old but certainly older than I and most likely 100 years old.. As timekiller said, we need to see a close up of the seam on top to be certain of the dateline.

Of interest pre Civil War bottles didnt have embossing but the label was tied to the neck. According to my book, 90% of all bottles manufactured were not embossed and my book identifys those valuable bottles that are being discarded..

In this book some of the bottles pictured state "plate mould" or "round plate" this means that on large orders the customer could have his bottles embossed by paying for the engraving of the blank plate.

Hey I thought for sure it was Southern Comfort or at least a whiskey too. But my 1904 Illinois Glass Co. book seems to say otherwise and your last copy and paste seems to confirm its Brandy..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Timekillers link says these fluted neck Brandys could date back 1890. I knew this but didnt say without a better pic of the neck. This is a possibility, but I need to see the seam. That will narrow it down and we can post the Green Check... (if timekiller agrees).

I also want to add that normally in North America this "common" bottle 1895-1932, will fall in the category of "antique" not "vintage".

 

[timekiller]

Timekillers link says these fluted neck Brandys could date back 1890. I knew this but didnt say without a better pic of the neck. This is a possibility, but I need to see the seam. That will narrow it down and we can post the Green Check... (if timekiller agrees).

I also want to add that normally in North America this "common" bottle 1895-1932, will fall in the category of "antique" not "vintage".

I won't get in this debate to much as it does not pertain to the subject matter really.But being that you felt to correct me here goes.If that bottle is 1920's -1930's like I think then it's not a antique.Also from what I get neither of us would be right calling it antique or vintage.Mainly cause there is nothing about bottles being discussed in those definitions.And the simple fact that it's not been dated anyway.I end on this & not to be mean it's just fact as i've sold many bottles.I bet that I couldn't even give that bottle away to the people I've delt with much less ask for any money.But maybe that's not the same in other places I don't know.
Take Care,
Pete,

Age Defining: Antique vs. Vintage vs. Retro | Apartment Therapy

Antique - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Antique vs. Vintage. Definition and differences?: Category-Specific Boards: eBay Discussion Boards

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Wow timekiller. I am in shock old friend that you feel I somehow insulted you. A simple "Nice ID" would have been better dont you think? I dont believe you ever put a date on it until now unless I missed it.. You simply stated that it was "not a old bottle" and before that Southern Comfort. "Old" is a matter of opinion. I know you find a lot of incredible colonial items and dont save this stuff. 20th century is my specialty LOL.

After reading your links Ill call it borderline antique lol. I still think its possible to be 100 years old because I have IDed it from my 1904 Glass Manufacturers book. Maybe you missed it. You are actually starting to insult me by not acknowleging my ID.

We can even call it vintage if this makes you happy. I dont think its relevant or important and maybe I should not have mentioned it. Sorry.

BTW nice "old" vintage 100 year old bottle skite and welcome to the forum. Timekiller is probably correct on the value. I didnt want to go there.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

One more thing. I agree value is minimal maybe $5-$10, not sure. But, like I said, I didnt want to go there. I will work just as hard to get out the books and make a common bottle ID as I would a thousand dollar artifact. It makes no difference to me. I actually think any "old" pre-prohibition cork top is a good bottle to save, or anything 100 years old, but thats just me. I remember a common liver cure made banner!


Im going to watch the hockey fights. (Pens/Flyers)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I apologize if Im beating a dead horse but I worked hard typing all this up and in case there is any doubt I searched eBay for a similar cork top bottle and I found this pretty purple automatic bottle machine (ABM) swirl top Brandy. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-PUR...937?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c4aff379 The trade name for this bottle in my 1904 Glass Manufacturer book is "Minnesota Brandy" also mentioned in timekillers copy and paste link.

Manganese clear glass turns purple in the sun. Around 1915 the use of Manganese was discontinued so if my books are not proof enough, this is proof positive that this type cork top was pre-1915.

Now I dont know if skites bottle is manganese as it set under the porch out of the sun. Put it on the roof and time will tell.

The only additional pic I need to see is a closeup of the neck seam. If the seam stops before the top its pre1904. If it has a ring around the neck, (like the manganese posted) its post 1904. Simple. I dont know when screw tops started but as I said it cannot possibly be newer than 1932 or it would be marked "Federal Law ...etc". I dont how how to better explain it.


1-Is this a valuable bottle?---no

2-Is it old ?---yes its 100 years old

3- Is it an antique?--- I would say yes, if I was selling it, but some may call it vintage. I guess its a matter of opinion and relevance.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

BCH,
144 items in a gross; 12 dozen.
Don..
Edit: But maybe 'gross' in that context refers to Before any Expense.

Thanks. In 1904-05 this quart bottle from Illinois Glass was $33 per Gross packed in 1/2 Gross boxes. Embossing was extra.

I dont know if that included shipping but the book has several pages of shipping crates to choose from. Ive been into bottles since the 70s and its a great book for making the tough IDs on unembossed bottles. You just cant disagree with the original glass manufacturer books.

 

[timekiller]

I apologize if Im beating a dead horse but I worked hard typing all this up and in case there is any doubt I searched eBay for a similar cork top bottle and I found this pretty purple automatic bottle machine (ABM) swirl top Brandy. ANTIQUE PURPLE WHISKEY BOTTLE ONE QT EXCELLENT CONDITION 12" | eBay The trade name for this bottle in my 1904 Glass Manufacturer book is "Minnesota Brandy" also mentioned in timekillers copy and paste link.

Manganese clear glass turns purple in the sun. Around 1915 the use of Manganese was discontinued so if my books are not proof enough, this is proof positive that this type cork top was pre-1915.

Now I dont know if skites bottle is manganese as it set under the porch out of the sun. Put it on the roof and time will tell.

The only additional pic I need to see is a closeup of the neck seam. If the seam stops before the top its pre1904. If it has a ring around the neck, (like the manganese posted) its post 1904. Simple. I dont know when screw tops started but as I said it cannot possibly be newer than 1932 or it would be marked "Federal Law ...etc". I dont how how to better explain it.


1-Is this a valuable bottle?---no

2-Is it old ?---yes its 100 years old

3- Is it an antique?--- I would say yes, if I was selling it, but some may call it vintage. I guess its a matter of opinion and relevance.

If your so sure & bound & determined by his pic.that it's a hundred years old. Then why not show him a bottle that looks more like it.Rather it's 100yrs or not makes little difference really don't it? As it's teetering on the edge anyway.I mean really all you have got to do is go back to when you came on to this site & it's not 100yrs old no more.It's a plain bottle period (nothing going for it other then trying to call it a 100 yrs old.Being how it's a (liquor/whiskey) bottle which have been made for a long time & some forms would interrest me. Tt's hard for me to call it old when I know theres older better examples.Just the opposite if it had been say a soda bottle.Not been around near as long & most early 20th century/late 19th would have some value or appeal.

Truth is they made many liquor bottles which in the pic below will show you that it does not have to be a brandy just because that's the only book you have & it's in there so it got to be what you say (wrong).And is what I've been tring to say since now, this has got to get so ugly.Better pics. are all that's going to tell rather it's old enough to call a 100yr old bottle or not.Just to many liquor/whiskey bottles made...... to look at the OP pics. & say "Oh thats a Brandy" I'm right again. I know you like being right BCH who don't But I ask give it a chance.Ah by the way Great ID I was wrong it's a 100yrs old............"Maybe" but just barely & still may not be.So now is it a Brandy or a Whiskey.What's you books say?