✅ SOLVED Any Ideas what this Brass item is??

[BuckleBoy]

Hello All,

I found two of these items--flat brass items with two holes for rivets/nails in them. They looked at the time like they would have some sort of stamping on them, but both are plain... The older one has some design and it is cast. It also has a part of an old nail still in one hole of it...








I found this one online that was stamped "CS" from a CW camp--the finder at the site says that it's a "watch fob" but it obviously isn't...and it's the same dimensions as the plain oval one I found (pictured above). I'm not suggesting that these are war related, but I'm just wondering what the heck they are...



http://www.midtenrelics.com/buttons.htm (See #2, second photo...)


Regards,


Buckleboy

 

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[johnnyi]

When you take scratchers dug examples, bigcypress's dug example, ironspike's saddle, and bigcypess's saddle into account, as well as these things you show, it sure looks more like saddle furniture rather than harness related.

 

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[BuckleBoy]

Like I said Jonnyi...I didn't green check it, I just threw in the reign guide picture, BB was happy with it now I see he has changed his mind that's his prerogative

but this is not the first time I have tried to help Iding US finds, only to meet with a negative so in the future I will refrain from trying, as it seems you US boys are only willing to except a US verification

Not trying to be petty or nothing, but there seems to be a lot of fuss over nothing

SS.

SS,

I am swayed by Johnny's argument. He has some excellent points. Sorry to flip-flop on this. And I'm not trying to be petty either. Just realizing that we should know more than we do about this item.

Regards,


Buckles

 

[johnnyi]

Still nothing to add until we hit some farm museums, but one other thing that might help when trying to find this in a text;.. This gizmo seems more like a "keeper" than a "guide". Usually on a harness arrangement such as those that require a team of horses, a guide is generally a large open round object, we've all found them, that mounts above the horse and is big enough not to wear the leather that passes through it. A keeper on the other hand is something that just keeps a strap in place. There is no apparent wear on these objects to suggest that they guided a rein or strap. On every harness we look at keepers are no more than a leather loop.

 

[Evolution]

This won't help solve the thread but I found one today too. Figured I'd post a pic. The K G I halfpenny is for size reference. One side appears to be decorative. one side flat. Found at a homesite that dates back into the 1700's.

Whoops. I just realized there were three pages to this thread. i only read the first one. Very interesting items no matter what they were used for. Obviously very common. Everyone seems to have one.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

The never ending thread. lol

 

[johnnyi]

Ha! yes 4-H, this is one is definately tough. One thing that's distinctive about them which might be a clue, is that virtually every one we find is decorated to one degree or another. Some, such as the cast ones, are highly decorated. Some are even silvered. Funtional harness fittings that we usually find can be decorated, but they can also be plain also. Not in this case.

 

[IronSpike]

Maybe these old decorative ones are belt strap guides for clothing rather than horse tack?

 

[johnnyi]

Maybe Spike. The elongated prongs on some examples suggest they went through something thicker than cloth, maybe even thicker than just leather. I don't think these are strap guides though. I have a feeling they're more likely keepers. We don't find uniform wear from where a strap rides over that part of the design. A strap end through a keeper on the other hand is not under stress and might not wear nearly as fast.

 

[RPG]

Ha! yes 4-H, this is one is definately tough. One thing that's distinctive about them which might be a clue, is that virtually every one we find is decorated to one degree or another. Some, such as the cast ones, are highly decorated. Some are even silvered. Funtional harness fittings that we usually find can be decorated, but they can also be plain also. Not in this case.

Another thing to note is that they are always found at sites dating from the late 18th-early19th centuries. Probably manufactured overseas.

 

[CRUSADER]

This won't help solve the thread but I found one today too. Figured I'd post a pic. The K G I halfpenny is for size reference. One side appears to be decorative. one side flat. Found at a homesite that dates back into the 1700's.

Whoops. I just realized there were three pages to this thread. i only read the first one. Very interesting items no matter what they were used for. Obviously very common. Everyone seems to have one.

I think we have two functions for two similar type items. The decorated type like yours are more likely to be furniture related & the plain ones are horse. The reason I now say this is because I came across these in another book recently. So that's 2 books saying furniture, so it adds weight to the argument but doesn't necessarily mean its right. (don't ask me to look up the book again, I haven't got time)

 

[IronSpike]

Maybe Spike. The elongated prongs on some examples suggest they went through something thicker than cloth, maybe even thicker than just leather. I don't think these are strap guides though. I have a feeling they're more likely keepers. We don't find uniform wear from where a strap rides over that part of the design. A strap end through a keeper on the other hand is not under stress and might not wear nearly as fast.

I was thinking leather belts and reckon decorative strap keeper would be better description. Same function as for saddles.

I also think Crusader is right that some were for furniture.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

(don't ask me to look up the book again, I haven't got time)

Cru, Could you look up that book again?

 

[johnnyi]

"I also think Crusader is right that some were for furniture."

I agree with crusader that the larger ones that have similar design were probably backplates to drawer pulls. What we're looking at though are the ones who's holes measure approximately 1" to 1 1/16" center to center. This seems to be the consitant measurement of the objects which we can't account for. It is also the measurement of the "u" shaped piece, the disk shaped piece, and even on occasion, the iron staple sometimes used, that fits them.

There are plenty of references on early American drawer pulls that cover the span of time we're talking about (Miller's "American Antique Furniture" is a well known one) which illustrate the different designs of drawer pulls. We don't find a double hinged pull on a plate this size. They are almost always bail handled (single bail) on a plate this small, and the plate has a single hole (usually square). The exception might be a obscure jewelry box or two, but those wouldn't account for the huge number of these we're finding on most colonial sites.

 

[CRUSADER]

"I also think Crusader is right that some were for furniture."

I agree with crusader that the larger ones that have similar design were probably backplates to drawer pulls. What we're looking at though are the ones who's holes measure approximately 1" to 1 1/16" center to center. This seems to be the consitant measurement of the objects which we can't account for. It is also the measurement of the "u" shaped piece, the disk shaped piece, and even on occasion, the iron staple sometimes used, that fits them.

There are plenty of references on early American drawer pulls that cover the span of time we're talking about (Miller's "American Antique Furniture" is a well known one) which illustrate the different designs of drawer pulls. We don't find a double hinged pull on a plate this size. They are almost always bail handled (single bail) on a plate this small, and the plate has a single hole (usually square). The exception might be a obscure jewelry box or two, but those wouldn't account for the huge number of these we're finding on most colonial sites.

Understand the above, but if we use logic, why decorate a piece that will be covered by a leather strap (makes sence to decor the U shaped piece which I have seen many examples of, but the plate would be covered )?

 

[johnnyi]

"Understand the above, but if we use logic, why decorate a piece that will be covered by a leather strap (makes sense to decor the U shaped piece which I have seen many examples of, but the plate would be covered )?"

Cru, I agree, that's a telling factor in these. The only reason I can see would be that this was not meant to hold the strap at all times where the design was covered, but instead it was a keeper which would make the design visible when belts, straps, harness, etc., were being removed and replaced. We've got many of the U shaped pieces which are almost always engraved also, and allow a design to be visible when in use. (The enigmatic U shaped piece is the round one which occasionally turns up which doesn't seem to be engraved.)

 

[CRUSADER]

"Understand the above, but if we use logic, why decorate a piece that will be covered by a leather strap (makes sense to decor the U shaped piece which I have seen many examples of, but the plate would be covered )?"

Cru, I agree, that's a telling factor in these. The only reason I can see would be that this was not meant to hold the strap at all times where the design was covered, but instead it was a keeper which would make the design visible when belts, straps, harness, etc., were being removed and replaced. We've got many of the U shaped pieces which are almost always engraved also, and allow a design to be visible when in use. (The enigmatic U shaped piece is the round one which occasionally turns up which doesn't seem to be engraved.)

On this side of the pond, I find more plain U shaped pieces than decorated, just adding to the info.

 

[johnnyi]

crusader, any chance when you have time to post a few pics of those so we can compare?

 

[CRUSADER]

crusader, any chance when you have time to post a few pics of those so we can compare?

No, takes to long to find them. I only started keeping them after this thread & pictured them with my finds in todays finds (I know I had 2 plain ones, in 2 different posts), you can hunt out the threads if you wish. They are in piles waiting to be sorted, if they haven't already gone with the junk box I sold recently.

If I find them when sorting, I will put them aside.

I'm busy now sorting slips for all the coins ready to show the farmers etc..

 

[scratcher]

crusader, any chance when you have time to post a few pics of those so we can compare?

Cru is too busy finding coins that make me weep.....

 

[scratcher]

crusader, any chance when you have time to post a few pics of those so we can compare?

No, takes to long to find them. I only started keeping them after this thread & pictured them with my finds in todays finds (I know I had 2 plain ones, in 2 different posts), you can hunt out the threads if you wish. They are in piles waiting to be sorted, if they haven't already gone with the junk box I sold recently.

If I find them when sorting, I will put them aside.

I'm busy now sorting slips for all the coins ready to show the farmers etc..

Ha! I knew it! (I hadn't seen this post yet)