Any ideas would be appreciated

tnt-k9 · May 25, 2011

Found this little piece this morning in the surf. The quarter is there for scale. Every other link is fused together but there are no signs at all of a seam. The clasp or lack of is what gets my curiosity. Found as you see it. Any opinion would be appreciated.

Bigcypresshunter · May 25, 2011

Can you tell us exactly what it says? All I can make out is CHRISTVS

Mackaydon · May 25, 2011

The reverse image is that of a Christogram; a monogram or combination of letters that forms an abbreviation for the name of Jesus Christ
The term Alpha and Omega (the Greek letters on the reverse) comes from the phrase "I am the alpha and the omega" in the Book of Revelation (verses 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13).
Don.....

Mackaydon · May 25, 2011

Just a guess that the obverse reads:
"CHRISTVS · VINCIT · CHRISTVS · REINATO · CHRISTVS · INPERAT" meaning

"Christ conquers - Christ reigns - Christ commands"

Dano Sverige · May 25, 2011

I can go with that Mackaydon mate. I could see "vincit" and what i had down as "regnat" but your "Reinato" seems a better guess. Excellent ID as usual. :thumbsup:

Bigcypresshunter · May 25, 2011

Mackaydon said:
Just a guess that the obverse reads:
"CHRISTVS · VINCIT · CHRISTVS · REINATO · CHRISTVS INPERAT" meaning

"Christ conquers - Christ reigns - Christ commands"

Sounds good....or maybe "CHRISTVS · VINCIT · CHRISTVS · REGNAT · CHRISTVS · IMPERAT"

Or maybe tnt-k9 could just tell us. :tongue3:

I think Dano's correct on the REGNAT part

It looks old or its made to look old. Nice find.

tnt-k9 · May 26, 2011

bigcypresshunter said:
Mackaydon said:

Just a guess that the obverse reads:
"CHRISTVS · VINCIT · CHRISTVS · REINATO · CHRISTVS INPERAT" meaning

"Christ conquers - Christ reigns - Christ commands"

Click to expand...

Sounds good....or maybe "CHRISTVS · VINCIT · CHRISTVS · REGNAT · CHRISTVS · IMPERAT"

Or maybe tnt-k9 could just tell us. I think Dano's correct on the REGNAT part

It looks old or its made to look old. Nice find.

You got it verbatum.. "REGNAT". Not sure if that is going to help date this piece. Talked to a local that specialisizes in glass jewelery and she suggested I look at 17th century stuff. Sure enough I found an example of the clasp. Gotta find an expert. Thanks guys for your input.

Bigcypresshunter · May 27, 2011

tnt-k9 said:
You got it verbatum.. "REGNAT". Not sure if that is going to help date this piece. Talked to a local that specialisizes in glass jewelery and she suggested I look at 17th century stuff. Sure enough I found an example of the clasp. Gotta find an expert. Thanks guys for your input.

It looks old and you certainly have a lot of potential in the Dutch Caribean. But I have a problem with thinking this is that old. It just doesnt look like an item that has been in the surf for very long. I give it 50 years because its black but I cant see it being 300 yrs old with no sand or crustaceans sticking to it. I dont see one grain of sand adhering to it unless you cleaned it. Did you clean it?

Can you post the clasp example you found? You may want to try posting in the Shipwreck section.

Monty · May 27, 2011

Doesn't the alpha and omega as used by the Greeks refer to the beginning and the end? Monty

Mackaydon · May 27, 2011

I believe it means that God is the beginning and the end; therefore eternal.

Dano Sverige · May 27, 2011

Yup...that's kinda what Ivan was saying when he threw that quote at me to try and prove God exists on another thread! :laughing9:

witgar · May 28, 2011

Mackaydon said:
The reverse image is that of a Christogram; a monogram or combination of letters that forms an abbreviation for the name of Jesus Christ
The term Alpha and Omega (the Greek letters on the reverse) comes from the phrase "I am the alpha and the omega" in the Book of Revelation (verses 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13).
Don.....

Indeed, the XP that you can see are Greek letters and stand for Chi Rho. Next to a youth movement in Flanders, that also is "Christos" (in greek you write something like XPISTOS), being Christ.

witgar · May 28, 2011

And by the way, just some extra information, Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat is a catholic song (in dutch although), but it's also the 'slogan' of the SSPX. I'm sure you will have a buyer for it there.

Monty · May 29, 2011

Well, I won't take up the argument as to whether anyone thinks there is a God or not. From what I have read in my lifetime there are/were many Gods, so pick one. Doesn't matter to me which one. What anyone else believes or doesn't believe ain't none of my business. Monty

Bigcypresshunter · May 29, 2011

Its a very interesting find that looks old or was made to look old with an unusual chain closure. Looks like a simple toilet chain hook. It kinds reminds me of the SCA stuff. Its amazing the chain didnt break, tossed around in the surf from 300 years of hurricanes.. I hope it gets Ided or authenticated.

Is the chain silver? You may want to test it to see what percent silver.

tnt-k9 · May 29, 2011

Bigcypress, I agree that there was not a lot of build up on this piece. I did have it soaking in white vinegar and salt for a little while till I started really looking at it. I figured I'd better pull it out just in case. It really intrigues me though and some of the fellas I know here that have seen it agree. "It looks old", "it's hammered", "nothing says that it's been rolling around the Caribbean for 300 years", "it could have been lost by someone who didn't know it's age".
I appreciate all the input from you folks who have more experience than I. There is an archaeological museum here and there is someone there who is suppose to know a lot about similar pieces, so on my next day off I'm gonna take it down there and let them take a look.
The more I look it seems that a lot of the 17Th C pieces were bronze vs silver, but I'm optimistic when it comes to finds. Just the little kid pirate in me.

Will post an update. Thanks again!

Bigcypresshunter · May 29, 2011

tnt-k9 said:
Bigcypress, I agree that there was not a lot of build up on this piece. I did have it soaking in white vinegar and salt for a little while till I started really looking at it. I figured I'd better pull it out just in case. It really intrigues me though and some of the fellas I know here that have seen it agree. "It looks old", "it's hammered", "nothing says that it's been rolling around the Caribbean for 300 years", "it could have been lost by someone who didn't know it's age".
I appreciate all the input from you folks who have more experience than I. There is an archaeological museum here and there is someone there who is suppose to know a lot about similar pieces, so on my next day off I'm gonna take it down there and let them take a look.
The more I look it seems that a lot of the 17Th C pieces were bronze vs silver, but I'm optimistic when it comes to finds. Just the little kid pirate in me.

Will post an update. Thanks again!

Yes that is basically what I was saying that it looks recently lost; such as in the last 50 years. Another possibility is that is was buried under the sand and was only tossed ashore from a recent storm. The sand can act to preserve the item but is constantly moving. I would be soaking it in distilled water to remove the salts.

As far as silver vs bronze. They absolutely used silver in the 17th century.

Its hard for us to see by the pics whether its cast, hammered or machine pressed.

Its definitely an interesting piece and I hope you will tell us the outcome. Have you found any other 17th century items on this beach? Is it a known shipwreck location? Did you find it in the Caribbean? More high resolution pics would be great. The 4th pic down is a little blurry. Also a pic of the edge to look for a casting seam.

witgar · May 30, 2011

The text really looks similar to fonts used on coins in the 17th century in Europe. Just reminds me of a dutch 'Schelling' of the mid 1600s in some way. I know that's not really trustworthy, but it's just an indication. It still could be made to look old however.