anyone have experience with the older keene pumps?

[bowgod1977]

I built a 3 inch dredge recently. In the process I picked up a used keene pump mounted to a 5.5 hp Honda motor. Being new to all of this I'm having problems with the pump that I can't figure out. First time out with it was a complete wash as the used hoses I got with the pump were full of holes. So I picked up some fresh hose and went back for round 2.
This time around started out great, primed the pump, started right up and I was off to the races. The nozzle was sucking great, the water was flowing through the sluice just the way I wanted it to, and everything seemed perfect. Unfortunately perfection didn't last, but maybe 2-3 minutes when all of a sudden the pump stopped sucking. The motor didn't shut off, the pump just quit sucking water. We cut the engine and primed the pump again, still no suction. Thankfully my buddy had his pump back at the car so I did get to run my new dredge for a while, but I seriously need to figure out this pump as I'm not going to be able to borrow a pump Everytime I go out.

Here's a little background info that might help a more experienced dredger diagnose the problem.
I had the pump shipped to me, the pump housing was removed prior to shipping so it could be shipped cheaper. I replaced the housing when it arrived. Not sure if that has anything to do with the problem but I figured it's worth mention. The other thing I'm thinking might contribute ifs when I bought new hose the only 2 1/2" hose I could find for the intake hose is a soft black rubber hose that has a stiff piece of steel wire that is inside the hose. It was very expensive high grade hose, but mainly used in heavy equipment.

I'm no mechanic so I have no clue where to start. I'm hoping someone here has had experience with these older keene pumps and might be able to point me in the right direction to fix this so I can get to dredging.

 

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[Hoser John]

Need mo'info--what size screen on footvalve? Was any water leaking from pump housing or at the shaft where it meets the housing as ez to kill them pump seals? Was it frothing bad when it stopped,as in full of air?? Plug in the jet log is a common occurance. Did the suction hose collapse flat?? Check the plastic hose bib that the footvalve attaches to as it might be loose/backed out so your pump just sucks air/ or if moved out it just cavatates and goes around and around. Are You in N cal as fix is ez for me when hands on...John

 

[bowgod1977]

I'll try to answer as many of those questions as I can. But like I said this is all new to me, I just started prospecting this summer, so I'm not that well versed yet.
The foot valve screen has pretty good sized holes without measuring I'd guess 1/4-3/8.
I didn't notice any water leaking but that's not to say it wasn't, I just didn't notice, but I was more checking hoses than the housing.
I'm running a suction nozzle not a jet so the jet log wasn't clogged. The suction hose did not collapse. The pump just stopped pumping water. It pumped fine for a minute or 3 long enough for me to start sucking material, but that was about it.
My thought was maybe the new hose I put on for my intake hose was allowing a little air to get in because of the wire running through the hose. I thought maybe it's not getting a tight seal. But as no one local sells 2 1/2" hose I didn't want to spend a ton in shipping if that's not the case.
My other concern was wondering if something went wrong taking the pump housing off the motor and putting it back on. But I have no experience and don't know if anything there could cause this problem or not.

 

[Mad Machinist]

Bowgod,

Try wetting the area around the center of the pump. Mine has a seal there that caused me a great deal of trouble until I replaced it.

 

[Dreadnox]

If engine is running and the pump impeller is turning then you have an air leak or a collapsed intake hose. The air leak could be around the housing edge or around the seal or the intake hose coupler where it connects to the pump itself chek to see if any water runs out of the pump if you manually prime it and double check the intake hose to make sure its not collapsing un the vacuum when pump is running. These are a few simple things to check for.

 

[Hoser John]

Suction nozzles plug up at induction log on the jet much easier than a pj. Disconnect hose from sn and look in the water induction hole as for complete total loss that is just about it as your footvalve has pretty big hols at 1/4". SN has a huge reducer inside since your a newbie thought you might not be aware. NOT trying to talk down,just helps,thats all-John

 

[bowgod1977]

I don't believe it has anything to do with the nozzle, the problem is at the pump. When it happened the pressure line going to the nozzle went limp as there was no longer water flowing through that hose to the nozzle.
First thought was maybe the foot valve was sticking, so we removed the valve and tried running wide open hose, but that didn't work.
I'm thinking it's most likely an air leak, or bad seals in the pump. Just not sure how I'd go about diagnosing either.
I live in VA in an area that people just look at you funny when we mention prospecting. Would a regular old small engine mechanic have the knowledge to work on these pumps or do I need to seek out someone with experience working in these kinds of pumps. I have to have it worked in either way to get the throttle hooked up right, might as well let them figure out the suction issue while they're at it.

 

[Jason in Enid]

You are going to have to disassemble the pump to inspect everything. Like dreadnox said, if the motor is running and the pump impeller is turning then is SHOULD be pumping water. It's very hard to loose prime while you are actively flowing water. A little bit of air will dimenish your flow pressure but would be getting pushed out too fast to actually kill the prime. Typically if you have leaks, you have water spraying out. 1/4" holes in the intake screen would scare the hell out of me for sucking in rocks and ruining the pump.

Start by taking the hoses off and look inside the housing. Any debris in there? How much room is between the hose bib and the impeller? It should be basically touching it.
Take the pump housing cover off. Any debris inside th ehousing or clogging the inside of the impeller vanes?
Does the impeller spin freely (like its off the shaft) or does turning it turn the crank shaft too?

If you haven't found any problems by this point, I would try replacing the seals and siliconing everything well (but not sloppy so that it's oozing into the pump). let it cure and try it again, but if you haven't found any problems to this point, it's beyond me why it wouldn't be flowing water.

 

[G1sammons]

One of my 4" keene did the same thing to me when I first bought it !

It's was used and had set and the seal was rotted and went out after about 10 mins of running .
Cost me 30 I think for the seal and a tool to replace it !
Works great now!
The easy way to tell is to watch for water leaking around the engine shaft where it gos into the pump .
If its out of the water cap the discharge or duck tape it shut ,put your foot valve on and fill it with a garden hose while holding it higher than the pump
So that the water fills the pump and watch between the eng and pump

If any water is flowing your seal is shot replace and get some gold!
Also there a vid on this on youtube thinks its show up under keene 180 search!
Good luck

 

[bowgod1977]

How hard is it to replace the seals? Without looking at it any further I'd almost be willing to bet this is the problem. As I started I bought this used, it had been sitting for a while. The hoses that came with it were all dried and cracked, and I'm assuming the seals probably are too. It has to be one of 2 things, either the seals are shot, or my intake hose is letting air in around it. I'm going to go do a test in the hose this evening to see if that is the problem, but I'm thinking with my luck I'm not going to get off that easy, it's probably going to be the seals.
And that's where the real problem will be. I'm about as mechanically inclined as a thumb tack, I can hold it for you, but don't expect much more than that. So I'm wondering if I can get away with changing the seals on my own, or should I take it to a small engine shop and have them do the work.

Also is there any way to get it to run with bad seals even temporarily, or ifs it completely out of commission until I get this figured out ?

Thanks for all the help so far, I really appreciate it.
Dave

 

[G1sammons]

How hard is it to replace the seals? Without looking at it any further I'd almost be willing to bet this is the problem. As I started I bought this used, it had been sitting for a while. The hoses that came with it were all dried and cracked, and I'm assuming the seals probably are too. It has to be one of 2 things, either the seals are shot, or my intake hose is letting air in around it. I'm going to go do a test in the hose this evening to see if that is the problem, but I'm thinking with my luck I'm not going to get off that easy, it's probably going to be the seals.
And that's where the real problem will be. I'm about as mechanically inclined as a thumb tack, I can hold it for you, but don't expect much more than that. So I'm wondering if I can get away with changing the seals on my own, or should I take it to a small engine shop and have them do the work.

Also is there any way to get it to run with bad seals even temporarily, or ifs it completely out of commission until I get this figured out ?

Thanks for all the help so far, I really appreciate it.
Dave

Simple easy about a 10 min job
B 2you need a extra in your tool box

 

[G1sammons]

Watch the vid on youtube it will shallow ya how !

Just do a search for keene pump on youtube
The vid is called keene pump repair !

 

[Jason in Enid]

Watch the vid on youtube it will shallow ya how !

Just do a search for keene pump on youtube
The vid is called keene pump repair !

Is this the one you are talking about?



If so, don't use a big-ass screwdriver on the impeller like I did. I was trying to do exactly what the manual said. Use a strap-wrench to take it loose! I didn't hurt the impeller but I could have!

 

[G1sammons]

Is this the one you are talking about?

YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZOG7MUipL4

If so, don't use a big-ass screwdriver on the impeller like I did. I was trying to do exactly what the manual said. Use a strap-wrench to take it loose! I didn't hurt the impeller but I could have!

Yup

 

[Hoser John]

If the seal was that bad it would leak water like a seive when primed,engine running or not. Get a coat hanger and try to clean out pump pickup veins-John

 

[bowgod1977]

Ok I have a bunch of things to check as soon as I get some free time. Is the seal everyone is talking about just that big O-ring that he showed on the video or are there other seals somewhere else that could have gone bad?
It looks like I could probably just go buy a big O-ring rather than the 40.00 seal from keene.
I haven't had a chance to do anything yet, but I have possibilities narrowed down to:
1. Air leak at the intake line.
2. Bad seals.
3. Pump housing not sealed right. The housing was removed when it was shipped to me, I never cleaned the old silicone off, or put new silicone on when I replaced the housing. I never even thought about it until I watched that video. Either way they all seem like simple fixes.

The other big question I have is "how do I figure out what model my pump is?" I don't see a model number anywhere on it, just keene eng. And their location.

Thanks again for everyone's help. Your very helpful to a lost newbie and I very much appreciate it.

 

[dredgeman]

The seal is the mechanical looking thing that is pressed into the case. The impeller has a ceramic disc that completes the seal while spinning. 99 percent of the time it is the rubber in the seal that blows out.

 

[Jason in Enid]

If your pump looks like the one in the video and has a 2.5 inch input and a 2 inch output, it's a P180 pump.

 

[bowgod1977]

The seal is the mechanical looking thing that is pressed into the case. The impeller has a ceramic disc that completes the seal while spinning. 99 percent of the time it is the rubber in the seal that blows out.

Are there any videos showing how to change those seals? I'm afraid of messing something up not knowing what I'm doing.

 

[bowgod1977]

If your pump looks like the one in the video and has a 2.5 inch input and a 2 inch output, it's a P180 pump.

My pump looks like that one as far as shape goes, but mine is painted yellow (not sure if that's from the factory, but looks like it could be) and it is definitely older (or looks like it's seen a lot more use anyways).
I've never measured the output the previous owner has a section attached to the output that let him run 2 1.5" pressure lines off it. But it could be a 2" output, I'd have to double check. But I know it's 2.5" intake.
I wasn't thinking the p180 because it looks like that pump is in the current line up, and I've been told mine is "An older keene pump" so I wasn't sure.