Atlantis

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

4

 

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[Highmountain]

Good Morning Friends:

Regarding "Legends" , a Traditional tale, often embellished with non useable / non essential, imaginative data, that may not be justifiable / provable in it's basic concept, yet is accepted as possibly existing and having a place in history - if not it would no longer be repeated historically.

Many consider the Bible as a group of legends. There are many factors in there which simply cannot be found or duplicated today, nor are there any reputable, qualified witnesses available. Yet in spite of this, we are steadily confirming many aspects of it. so it is with many Legends.

Unfortunately, many legends have been embarrassingly shown to be based upon the truth, need I mention Troy's present suspected location? Zimbabwee's finding, which resulted in a Lordship, the identity of the builders and workers of which still haven't been solved? .

Some day we will also locate King Solomons's mines, etc. The list is almost endless, but some are unraveled each year, despite not having clearly provable data presently. After all, if such data were available, it would have been solved long ago and it would no longer be a Legend.

In a more recent event, the Legend of Tayopa had also effectively been entered into the discard pile of legends which never existed, this by the very ones that operated it, the Jesuits. The failure of the hundreds that looked for it for the last 400 years.does not help to explain it's existence, if it actually ever did. Yet, in spite of the lack of almost any evidence, let alone creditable evidence, I succeeded in finding it and now own it. The resident Jesuit in Yecora is very interested in my find and wishes to have a long talk, which we shall have soon..

So it is with Atlantis, we have an obscure legend with data which no-one has been able to follow up successfully, a legend which vaguely detailed the existence, location, size, shape, etc, and crudely the age of it's occurrence.. Does the lack of any confirmation of this data automatically place it on the list of Imaginative stories, such as King Arthur? No way.

According to the legend, which I will not repeat again, we have several points which will identify it.--

Location --- West of the straights of Gibraltar. This is very clear. This puts it in the vicinity of the junction of the four plates, The North American, South American, euroasian, and African plates. this is very important as we shall see.t.

see picture #1



Size ---------As large as Spain & Libya, See comparative pictures. Remember, in the case of island empires, it was normal to include the entire group for the size. The Greek empire for example. Atlantis most likely included the string of islands to the south. The Azores.

See pictrue no. 2


Physical features, topography -- Said to consist of three water rings and two land rings with a central island of a certain size and shape, a large fertile plain with a small mountain. It also consisted of many islands, Probably including the Azores..

A simple explanation of this configuration is given as being a huge, collapsed, double occurring, caldera with two circular rings. In layman's language, It can be imagined that a huge volcano collapsed forming the outer ring. Later it became active again, and again collapsed forming the second smaller ring leaving the center portion above water which formed the actual island of Atlantis,
See picture 3


Rumors of it being between Spain and the Americas. Precisely where the presumed giant Caldera lies at the bottom of the Atlantic.

See picture no. 4

So we have found an object which fits Plato's description of Atlantis almost perfectly, the approx. size, physical configuration, location, and above all, located almost on the junction of the four continental plates, an ares of exceptional seismic activities. One which is perfectly capable of destroying Atlantis as described.

What would you calcuate the odds of Plato's description fitting this area so closely, one which no one has seen until recently, or this area fitting Plato's description so closely?

The actual proof and physical investigation will have to be in the hands of future scientists. Perhaps from the Explorers Club, of which we both are members.. We have neither the physical nor financial resources to do it, but we can take pleasure in helping to pave the way. .©@

Nice summation Jose and you might well be correct. Certainly a lot of legends have proven to be true and a lot more will in the future.

I think what inspires the need for repudiation and assertions of falsehood on the part of doubters is the use of the word, 'WILL' as opposed to words and phrases that convey possibility and personal opinion, rather than established fact and certainty.

Until any legend is proved by concrete evidence it seems to me the default position is 'MIGHT BE'. Any time statements become stronger it's an invitation to denunciation by those who believe they're equally justified in their over-statement as you are in yours. Some seem to feel a moral obligation to do it, some just pride themselves in a position of 'de-bunkerhood', and some are just fundamentally contentious by nature.

Personally, I don't doubt Atlantis might exist. But from the beginning of reading the discussions on Atlantis here I've found myself almost drawn to take an opposing position because of the choices of words used by those favoring it [Thus far I've resisted the impulse].

The entire approach of taking a shred of Plato and setting out to prove it's true as opposed to an unbiased investigation for truth or falsehood [or accumulating evidence pro/con] seems to me to be the antithesis of sound investigative technique. Whatever the results, they'll always be tainted by the motives of the investigator.

Just my personal thoughts on how investigations of legends 'ought to be' approached if a person wants the outcomes to retain credibility and substance with those who begin as neutral but with open minds.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Jack, you are correct. semantics are extremely important. This is one of the reasons that I used the present, positive wording. It was to actually provoke a response, especially a negative one. If I cannot answer fairly logically, then I need to go back to my drawing board. or ORO"S OUIJI board.

You also posted -->

The entire approach of taking a shred of Plato and setting out to prove it's true as opposed to an unbiased investigation for truth or falsehood or accumulating evidence pro/con] seems to me to be the "antithesis" of sound investigative technique. Whatever the results, they'll always be tainted by the motives of the investigator.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Antithesis" , no. There is no way that one can take an extremely old, vague, Legend under attack and commence to prove, or disprove it, except by assumptions, which have to be discarded or added as it may develop. One has to start some where.

The question was did Plato 's data have any substance? The only possibility was to evaluate it's possible location. It immediately became obvious that the general location did have something odd there, an anomaly of the basic size of Atlantis..

How to explain it? Only a Caldera could do that, and simultaneously account for the supposed configuration. Since it is sitting upon a highly active seismic zone, and was supposedly destroyed by such activities, the logical assumption was obvious. It fit Atlantis's descriptionion in all aspects, It now rests upon some future scientific expedition to actually recover corroborating evidence, but for the moment, I am satisfied.

I actually had less to work with on Tayopa, more contradicting data from quotable sources.

.Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

Jack, you are correct. semantics are extremy important. This is one of the reasons that I used the present, positve wordiing. It was to actually provoke a response, especially a negative one. If I cannot anwer fairly logically, then I need to go back ot my drawing board. or ORO"S OUIJI board.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose: Logic is a dog that just won't hunt by itself. I've personally talked with hundreds of people who read Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver by Frank Dobie and who took his words as gospel much as you're taking the words of Plato. Thousands more I've never talked to did the same, they believed with justification.

They've used the words of Dobie's book precisely the way you're using the words of Plato, studied terrain features, topo maps, trekked up countless canyons and expended a wealth of treasure in gasoline, engine-wear, automobile tires and shoe-leather. All because they didn't go to the actual sources of material and documents Dobie prominently listed as his sources of information.

If they'd done so they'd have found immediately that Dobie took a lot of often diametrically opposing-in-fact anecdotes and spun them into a story that's understandable to readers, but excludes lots of hard information that might be true and skews more so's the story hangs together. Dobie never claimed nor pretended otherwise. It was the wishful thinking of lost gold mine hunters that led them on their merry, but futile chases.

Logic combined with Dobie's story allows the subject of his tome to be anywhere on a compass rose from Tucson to the Rio Grande and north to the Colorado boundary.

With apologies to the bard, "So let it be with Plato." Problem being that Plato didn't leave a bibliography and footnotes for a person to backtrack. Pretty good man with logic, however.

Jack

Edit: I'll concede the fundamental difference is that nobody's likely to burn up any tires or shoe leather chasing Plato. Lowers the ante considerably and reduces the chase to an academic exercise.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

It looks more and more believable, though I'll still stand more to the side of not believing Atlantis existed. The trickiest question we need to answer, if we want the Atlantis myth to have any kind of weight in Reality, is why no one else wrote about it, highmountain touched on this before.

If such a large empire spanned so great a place in space and time, and fought so memorable a war against the former people of Athens, where did their record go?
If one is to take the stand that it was destroyed in the 9,000 years since their collapse, the problem becomes a little trickier: How does Solon learn about it in the first place? If we are to believe Plato; that he learned about it from word of Mouth, we have but one way to seperate an oral legend from a lie, and i'll get to that in a minute.

This is the source of my perhaps overemphasis on Plato; even if, as Oro contends, he was not the first to record the myth, he certainly popularized it*. The only not-platonic fact Herodotus even hints at is that it's generally west-ish of Greece. We have no way of latching onto any other fact of the Atlantis Legend without first going through Plato, and no way of determing which things Plato exaggerated, which things are true, and which things he's lied about. So the only way we really can go about finding the sunken kingdom is if we grab onto Plato and try to confirm as many facts of his story as possible.

Now, this mid-atlantic location seems promising, it's certainly in the classic locale, and seems to fit the shape. The only question I have is when did it sink?













* or the Atlantis myth is at the conflux of the largest series of coincidences I've ever seen.

 

[Salvor6]

According to geologists, the area RDT shows on his map has been under 10,000 feet of water for millions of years.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

got a link or something?
I was afraid of that. Plato could have most certainly gotten the date wrong, date inflation happens in legends all the time...but it usually places the legend farther back in time. Now, perhaps Plato et. al. couldn't even concieve of million-year time spans...even then, we have another problem

while I might be open to a civilization existing 9,000 or even 90,000 years in the past, 900,000 or several million is pushing even my deliberately extended credulity.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi MT Hello my friend, excellent response.

You posted -->

Dobie took a lot of often diametrically opposing-in-fact anecdotes and spun them into a story that's understandable to readers, but excludes lots of hard information that might be true and skews more so's the story hangs together
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Absoloutely correct. There in lay the problem, to separate the wheat from the chaff. This took many bottles of aspirin and time, lot's of time, but I was successful. Archaeological work will start on it as soon as I finally receive clearance from the Mexican gov't. Until then it will remain untouched for many reasons.

One of the reasons that it took so long, was that there were supposedly 6 other Mines involved in the uprising. It took me years to find enough evidence to be sure that they existed, then concentrate on Tayopa itself.

As for Dobie, you are again correct, he never was at Tayopa, nor was Milton Rose, nor all of the others that claimed to have been..

After having fourd it, back tracking showed that many of the little stories etc., that he used to compile the actual book, had a basis of truth running through them. None could be used to locate Tayopa by themselves, probably not even in conjunction with each other, they were in somewhat the same category as Atlantis. If "any" of them had had enough provable substance, Tayopa would have been found long before I was even conceived..

Incidentally that map in Dobie's book is almost 98 % correct. The last feature needed was "Espobachi"., even the Indians up there didn't know of any Espobachi. I t was only through a curious coincidence that I located it also, again, just where it should be

I never even gave that map a thought until after I had found Tayopa, since I doubted that anyone would publish a map in a popular book if it had any validity. I also presumed that many had actually used the map to look forTayopa with obviously no success, so it must be worthless.

However, after I had found Tayopa, out of idle curiosity, I backtracked with it and found that it actually was correct except for the exchanging of the Arischiachi and Yokivo trails.

-Sigh, it could have saved me a lot of time. Such is life.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI scubs: Kinda deep for my hooka no? This depth has been known for quite a while.

I will take issue on the idea that nothing occured at the intersection of the three major plates. The continental drift has been known for some time. Calculate how much this would amount to in say just 1,000,000 years, obviously something had / has to give or change down there. particularly at this spot.

As for this particular region, look carefully at the photograph, it shows mountains at the Atlantis location of thousands of ft. The near by Azores, probably part of the Atlantis group, are some 12,0000 ft. what caused this? It also shows quite clearly a gigantic Caldera, Atlantis, Where did it come from? when? And by a curious coincidence, fits precisely the description and location of Atlantis.

We aren't interested in the general geology of the region, only of a specific area, Atlantis.

Don Jose d e La Mancha.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

dunno, I'm leery
if it can't be decently demonstrated that there was something for our atlanteans to live on in a roughly exact time period, all you're really proving is that there is a geologic hot spot beyond the pillars of hercules that forms a circle or two (as I mentioned in another thred, the concentric circles seem to occur within the harbor proper, not around the entire island.) Given that this is a fairly common property of volcanoes, particularly oceanic volcanoes, It's not too even an unsuprising coincidence

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose', Dueno de Real e Minas el Tayopa wrote:

ORO"S OUIJI board

My Weegee board? What Weegee board? I don't got no Weegee board; I don't need no Weegee board! I don't got to show you any steenking Weegee boards!
Oroblanco

 

[Salvor6]

I know where Atlantis is located. Unlike RDT, I have photographic proof!

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Don Jose', Dueno de Real e Minas el Tayopa wrote:

ORO"S OUIJI board

My Weegee board? What Weegee board? I don't got no Weegee board; I don't need no Weegee board! I don't got to show you any steenking Weegee boards!
Oroblanco

I work at a Jesuit college
every once and a while, I'll get a student who thinks those things are patently satanic
or even worse: someone who thinks I'm some kind of heratic because of my research in the history of the occult/alchemy
Then I show them that most of the primary source materials I'm studying...you know...stuff by 17th century jesuits who believed in Astrology...

then they shut up

 

[Highmountain]

I know where Atlantis is located. Unlike RDT, I have photographic proof!

What are we talking here? A submerged water tower with ATLANTIS Seniors 8736 BC scrawled on it? A submerged doorway arch with the inscription: ATLANTIS WATER AND SEWER DEPARTMENT?

What exactly constitutes photographic proof that something is Atlantis?

Just curious
Jack

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

That's a good point, Highmountain.

I'm actually anxious to see it; though it might be the 'ole "Shot of Plato's dessicated brain" gag.
I'm not OVERLY skeptical though, becuase I've maintained for some years now that I'm in possession of a 18th century facsimile of a 1st century facsimile of the sumerian Tablet of Destinies...of course, I've also maintained for some years now that I'm clincially insane.

as mentioned earlier, I'll be sold on anything with lots of crystals and saucermen

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI gentlemen: I am pleased to see that you are trying to find the weak seams of my proposal, precisely as I asked you for, but don't let personalities sneak in. So far, I haven't had to retreat.


William, you posted -->

I work at a Jesuit college Then I show them that most of the primary source materials I'm studying...you know...stuff by 17th century jesuits who believed in Astrology..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wanna play a little game? If so, post a birth date and hr if possible, of someone that you know intimately. I will post a psychological profile of them and rely upon your honesty and intellectual curiosity to learn more to post just how close I came.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Scuba, I have been wromg more than rigth in my checkered life, I would love to see this photographic proof.

My wife can verify my being wrong.. sniff.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI WILLIAM, you posted ->

I'll be sold on anything with lots of crystals
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Need help dumping meth?

Appol, couldn't resist my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

HI gentlemen: I am pleased to see that you are trying to find the weak seams of my proposal, precisely as I asked you for, but don't let personalities sneak in. So far, I haven't had to retreat.


William, you posted -->

I work at a Jesuit college Then I show them that most of the primary source materials I'm studying...you know...stuff by 17th century jesuits who believed in Astrology..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wanna play a little game? If so, post a birth date and hr if possible, of someone that you know intimately. I will post a psychological profile of them and rely upon your honesty and intellectual curiosity to learn more to post just how close I came.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I'm a psych minor
I've studied the barnam effect...

 

[Highmountain]

HI gentlemen: I am pleased to see that you are trying to find the weak seams of my proposal, precisely as I asked you for, but don't let personalities sneak in. So far, I haven't had to retreat.


William, you posted -->

I work at a Jesuit college Then I show them that most of the primary source materials I'm studying...you know...stuff by 17th century jesuits who believed in Astrology..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wanna play a little game? If so, post a birth date and hr if possible, of someone that you know intimately. I will post a psychological profile of them and rely upon your honesty and intellectual curiosity to learn more to post just how close I came.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I'm a psych minor
I've studied the barnam effect...

Seems to me as a psych minor one of the burning issues you ought to be able to resolve is getting all of us in sinc over some basic rules of the road. Counsel us obout how we establish agreement about some basic issues of procedure. Such as, if scuba has pictures of something underwater what has to be in those pictures so's we agree it's proof, and what it proves.

Degrees of proof in law are, beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal law, and preponderance of evidence for civil law [inside the US]. As a psyche nobody expects you to know how to evaluate the evidence so's to establish whether either of those criteria have been met by scuba's pics. But since we all helped pay for your schooling by our taxes paying for the school you went to we ought to be able to expect you to counsel us concerning hmmm rules of engagement, rules of evidence, basic communication methodology etc?

[Tongue in cheek ]
Jack