Barrels in fast water

[principedeleon]

I havn't bought anything yet. I don't follow what your saying. As I understand things, If I use a infinity jet it has several benefits. It creates more suction with less effort (pump/motor) meaning I can run the engine slower saving fuel while moving the same or more material then a standard jet. The dynamics of the required sluice for a 6" dredge will not decrease but instead could increase but will more then likely stay the same. The reason for larger dredges is to move more material and for that you need a larger sluice to handle the larger volume of material. A added benefit of going this route is I will have a lot more power in reserve to dredge deeper. If I can move X amount of material at 10' down @ 25% throttle and I need to go deeper due to the needed lift required I can crank the engine up to 50% to overcome gravity and still move the same X material. That's how I understand it. I try to not over think/complicate things with stupid numbers (lol) rather I use common sense based on what I have read/learned and don't worry about the math. While floatation requirments will change based on many factors I would rather have too much then too little. That's why building in sluice adjustments are important.

Okay im talking about water going through your box.... if both pumps running at 25% is producing 300gpm and your draw is 600gpm then .. you will find it haves good suction and your pump is only 25% accelerated but your 20" box wont look like a reg log jet dredge sluice since you are producing less water meaning it wont be clearing rocks as good. Im going to make one not to just dredge deeper and running on less trottle but to lighten up the whole dredge . Meaning instead of having two engines running from1/4-1/2 ill have just one engine running at 1/2-full speed. Most dredging i do is done in less then 10' anyways. And you will only carry one engine and have one home for if something happends to that one. Dont want to bring up math but thats the only way i think i can explain what i mean ..

 

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[aarthrj3811]

Back in the 70’s I used Jet fuel wing tanks..I don’t know if they can still be found...Art

 

[omnicron]

Okay im talking about water going through your box....

if both pumps running at 25% is producing 300gpm and your draw is 600gpm then ..

you will find it haves good suction and your pump is only 25% accelerated but your 20" box wont look like a reg log jet dredge sluice since you are producing less water meaning it wont be clearing rocks as good.


Im going to make one not to just dredge deeper and running on less trottle but to lighten up the whole dredge .

Meaning instead of have two engines running from1/4-1/2 ill have just one engine running at 1/2-full speed. Most dredging i do is done in less then 10' anyways. And you will only carry one engine and have one home for if something happends to that one. Dont want to bring up math but thats the only way i think i can explain what i mean ..

I think you may be confused, a increase in suction is only going to result in a increase in water flow. Not the other way. If you take a flow of water and restrict it, you end up with a increase of pressure. That pressure also has a increase in velocity. This increase in velocity effects the main volume of water inside the jet tube, increasing it's velocity to match the high pressure stream. On the suction side of the jet, you will have a increase of vaccum due to in increase in flow. You wont have a increase of suction and a drop in volume. That's fluid dynamics. This is based on my understanding. Refer to what I originally said, you will move the same amount of material (water/rocks/sand/gold/whatever else) with less effort requiring less pump/motor or rpms (with larger equipment) You adjust your jet to achieve maximum pressure at any given rpms thus you are increasing efficiency

Venturi effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The Venturi effect is a jet effect; as with a funnel the velocity of the fluid increases as the cross sectional area decreases, with the static pressure correspondingly decreasing. According to the laws governing fluid dynamics, a fluid's velocity must increase as it passes through a constriction to satisfy the principle of continuity, while its pressure must decrease to satisfy the principle of conservation of mechanical energy. Thus any gain in kinetic energy a fluid may accrue due to its increased velocity through a constriction is negated by a drop in pressure.

When a fluid such as water flows through a tube that narrows to a smaller diameter, the partial restriction causes a higher pressure at the inlet than that at the narrow end. This pressure difference causes the fluid to accelerate toward the low pressure narrow section, in which it thus maintains a higher speed. The Venturi meter uses the direct relationship between pressure difference and fluid speeds to determine the volumetric flow rate."

 

[omnicron]

Back in the 70’s I used Jet fuel wing tanks..I don’t know if they can still be found...Art

If they could be found, I'm sure it'll be more then I want to spend, just based on the price of scrap aluminum.

 

[principedeleon]

I think you may be confused, a increase in suction is only going to result in a increase in water flow. Not the other way. If you take a flow of water and restrict it, you end up with a increase of pressure. That pressure also has a increase in velocity. This increase in velocity effects the main volume of water inside the jet tube, increasing it's velocity to match the high pressure stream. On the suction side of the jet, you will have a increase of vaccum due to in increase in flow. You wont have a increase of suction and a drop in volume. That's fluid dynamics. This is based on my understanding. Refer to what I originally said, you will move the same amount of material (water/rocks/sand/gold/whatever else) with less effort requiring less pump/motor or rpms (with larger equipment) You adjust your jet to achieve maximum pressure at any given rpms thus you are increasing efficiency Venturi effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "The Venturi effect is a jet effect; as with a funnel the velocity of the fluid increases as the cross sectional area decreases, with the static pressure correspondingly decreasing. According to the laws governing fluid dynamics, a fluid's velocity must increase as it passes through a constriction to satisfy the principle of continuity, while its pressure must decrease to satisfy the principle of conservation of mechanical energy. Thus any gain in kinetic energy a fluid may accrue due to its increased velocity through a constriction is negated by a drop in pressure. When a fluid such as water flows through a tube that narrows to a smaller diameter, the partial restriction causes a higher pressure at the inlet than that at the narrow end. This pressure difference causes the fluid to accelerate toward the low pressure narrow section, in which it thus maintains a higher speed. The Venturi meter uses the direct relationship between pressure difference and fluid speeds to determine the volumetric flow rate."

I cant get wikipedia to back me up but TimberDoodle probably can lol He post this in thread here. "Just a much more efficient jetting system than a log jet. 60gpm at 30psi jet feed promoting 270gpm draw on my multijet. Log jet's run in the area of a 1-1 input to draw ratio which would require close to 270gpm feed for 270gpm draw which also results in a box capable of handling over 500gpm volume. I work mainly smaller streams and rivers where I don't need to have air most of the time and if I do, then I have a 12v system that I can bring in. " Do you understand him ?

 

[omnicron]

Yes I have seen his post and read them all. That doesn't mean your going to have less water flow. That goes against fluid dynamics as I understand it. Any time you have a restriction, your going to have a rise in pressure and a increase in velocity. Think of plugging a hose, the pressure rises and the water squirts out. That is a increase in velocity. Vacuum/suction is the same. Your going to have a rise in suction causing a rise in velocity. That velocity (speed up) is going to cause more flow. (Suction, vacuum or negative pressure) ever how you want to look at it. Speed = faster = more =volume = More Flow = more water, more rocks, more material. Its just you can do with less needed energy = more efficient. Get it?

I am just pulling numbers out my ass here. just for reference.
Another words, with a jet long, lets say you need 6.5hp and 350gpm@2180rpm's to move 1500gpm. With a infinity jet you can move the same 1500gpm with the same 6.5hp 350gpm pump but at 1500 rpms. Or the same setup with a infinity jet @ 2180rpms and move 2-3 times the material (4260 - 6540 gpm) or use smaller pump/motor at say 2180rpms to move the 1500gpm. Your goal is to move MORE MORE MORE material with less energy. If you needed a smaller box because your moving less material, were is the benefit of moving to a 6" when your going to be running the same amount of material as a 4" You don't have less flow and move more material. MORE SUCTION = MORE MATERIAL = MORE GOLD

 

[principedeleon]

Yes I have seen his post and read them all. That doesn't mean your going to have less water flow. That goes against fluid dynamics as I understand it. Any time you have a restriction, your going to have a rise in pressure and a increase in velocity. Think of plugging a hose, the pressure rises and the water squirts out. That is a increase in velocity. Vacuum/suction is the same. Your going to have a rise in suction causing a rise in velocity. That velocity (speed up) is going to cause more flow. (Suction, vacuum or negative pressure) ever how you want to look at it. Speed = faster = more =volume = More Flow = more water, more rocks, more material. Its just you can do with less needed energy = more efficient. Get it? I am just pulling numbers out my ass here. just for reference. Another words, with a jet long, lets say you need 6.5hp and 350gpm@2180rpm's to move 1500gpm. With a infinity jet you can move the same 1500gpm with the same 6.5hp 350gpm pump but at 1500 rpms. Or the same setup with a infinity jet @ 2180rpms and move 2-3 times the material (4260 - 6540 gpm) or use smaller pump/motor at say 2180rpms to move the 1500gpm. Your goal is to move MORE MORE MORE material with less energy. If you needed a smaller box because your moving less material, were is the benefit of moving to a 6" when your going to be running the same amount of material as a 4" You don't have less flow and move more material. MORE SUCTION = MORE MATERIAL = MORE GOLD

Doesnt less rpm means less gpm ?
And less gpm means less flow coming out the jet while still having a 1500gpm draw ?

 

[omnicron]

Doesnt less rpm means less gpm ?
And less gpm means less flow coming out the jet while still having a 1500gpm draw ?[/QUOT

That's where your having the confusion. You can use a smaller pump/motor to have the same amount of flow through the jet, but may need to run at a slightly higher rpm. Or you can have a larger pump/motor and turn less rpm's to have the same amount of flow through the jet. Either way, the design is still effiecent, in that it uses less energy to move a larger volume. Personally I would rather have more engine pump then I need and turn less rpm's (better fuel usage, less wear and tear) on my equipment and have power to spare if I need more suction then to size my motor/pump to whats needed to get the job done.

Maybe this will help:
A standard jet has one stream of water causing a venturi effect. Very limited surface area to act apon.
A Duel jet has 2 streams of water, thus increasing the suction effect of the venturi. Twice the surface area to act apon.
A tri-jet has 3 streams thus further increasing this effect, 3 times the surface area to act apon.
These 3 jet all cause agitation but for every stream of water induced, that effect is lessened (lets say less drag)(more surface area to act apon)
A infinity jet induces water at 360 degrees (one big ass stream of water) thus it has more (surface area) to act apon, less drag.

 

[G1sammons]

Eee

 

[omnicron]

 

[bill-costa rica]

and a 5 jet ?

bill/cr

 

[G1sammons]

Seems

 

[principedeleon]

Yeah

 

[principedeleon]

I aint going to kill my back cause of a engine. They are known to last yearrrss specially the honda ones with all types of abuse. I have places here you have to carry things for a mile or longer. So lightweight is a must. But thats just personal preference. So do you think you dont need a smaller box? So with larger pumps running at 1/4 speed is 1/3 rpm / gpm from what a regular dredge release from their pumps . So you will have to make up for the low gpm to achive 1200 gpm for a normal 6" dredge sluice; but you will have to run at higher rpms. And above normal suction that you will get with a regular dredge. Thats how i see it.. I have gravity dredged and when you have high gravity you achieve a greater suction that is not created by a normal dredge . You just need to watch your fingers & Make sure you get a suction nozzle with a breaker . Edit: i still think ill rather run a 8" and be justice most dredge motors are running in higher rpm, Specially for their air compressor can achieve the right rpm with their 1-2 pulley ratio. So you would have to change the pulley ratio also if you want to run at 1/4 speed.

 

[mxer47]

I following this sort of lol. Ok the increased velocity from the infinity changes the ratio. So if the ratio changes in favor to the nozzle volume you still may have the same overall volume of water but just more material and capacity. If so the box needs to reflect the change in the ratio of material to overall water? If I'm hearing both of you right. Idk

 

[G1sammons]

I ii

 

[G1sammons]

123

 

[omnicron]

I aint going to kill my back cause of a engine. They are known to last yearrrss specially the honda ones with all types of abuse. I have places here you have to carry things for a mile or longer. So lightweigt is a must. But thats just personal preference. So do you think you dont need a smaller box? So with larger pumps running at 1/4 speed is 1/3 rpm / gpm from what a regular dredge release from the pump. Meaning maybe 200gpm +600 gpm draw. i can see you achive 1200 gpm for a normal dredge sluice but you will have to run at higher rpms. And above normal suction that you will get with a regular dredge. Thats how i see it.. I have gravity dredged and when you have high gravity you achive a greater suction that is not created by a normal dredge . You just need to watch your fingers & Make sure you get a suction nozzle with a breaker .

My suction breaker is a pair of dikes, if my finger get cought, off it goes. As I have it figured once all my fingers are gone, I can sit back, collect disability the rest of my life! lmfao
Also they have a new invention out in the last few hundred years...they are round, roll on the ground... called wheels. LOL I'm just kidding around. A wheeled cart would make it easier to move around.

I'm giving up trying to explain fluid dynamics.

All I can say is if your going to build a 6" dredge that in theory could process say 12 yards a hour but in your understanding of infinity jets, it's only going to process 8 yards a hour because it will have less water flow.
Then why spend the money to go larger when all you would need to do is make a infinity for your 4" that will suck more material? Oh wait, it'll suck less material....
Really I will not need a smaller box, matter of fact a 22" box should be just right. If I was to undersize my pump/motor then yea, smaller box but to do that would be stupid, why spend lots of money and not be able to process material to the max? More material = more GOLD
I would personally never buy a Honda, way to much money for a engine when there are other engines just as good for half the cost. Change your oil, keep your filter clean and any engine will last year.


Bill, 5 jet Never heard of such a animal but then again I don't know everything,,, I forgot a lot when I turned 21! lol

G1, should be a blast for you, I'm kind of planning a trip next year (working on my wife) But it wont be Nome, I'm thinking a heli-ride deep into the back country with my dredge, some guns and a few resupply trips...or maybe I'll just start knocking on doors asking if I can dredge on their claims! haha Only way I would be able to go is if I recover between 20 and 30 oz this year. My wife would be convinced then.

 

[G1sammons]

Qqq

 

[omnicron]

G1, that what I was trying to get across, it's the surface area that the "stream" makes contact. Pressure and flow does also play a row in any jet. If you look several post up you'll see I said the same thing.

In reality when your flow of fluid enters a restriction you have a major pressure drop after the restriction, pressure increase before it. I was trying to get the principle of fluid dynamics across.

Mxer, any time you have a restriction, you have a change in velocity. It speeds up. (KEEP THIS IN MIND FOR A SECOND) On one side of the jet, lets say the flare side, the water will be moving fast due to more surface area the "stream" is acting apon. On the nozzle side you will see a increase in (vacuum, suction or negative pressure) what ever you want to call it. So now you have a increase in velocity on one side you must also have a increase on the other side, right? The increase means more suction and the more suction, the faster the water must flow there for increasing the volume. The more volume of water, the more material that you can suck.