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Be careful collecting in FL

Same thing happened out in Arizona/4 corners a few years back. They said it was a political witch hunt….. informants,leading citizens,suicides. Very few convictions but lives ruined.
Keep it a hobby and hunt private land is my best advice. Sure not worth the headache,eh?
I can't imagine trying to hunt federal land or sneaking in somewhere and looking over your shoulder every minute.
 
There is a guy pretty well known in the Tampa/St. Pete area who has a store selling fossils and points. He has a fantastic collection of each. It is common knowledge he bought a lot of them by trading pot for points/fossils. His store/museum has been around for years. I wonder how scrupulous some of his suppliers were?
 
I can go buy heroin right now...today...within 10 min. at any time, not to mention meth....as can anyone in high school. ...and your are gonna tell me the cops don't know who these dealers are but I do?....
 
waste of taxpayer money! They have to justify pensions though.
 
An interesting article, especially with the sarcasm and comedy.
...one of the Timucua 14 winds up in the slammer and finds himself sharing a cell block with serial killers, rapists, child molesters, drug dealers and bank robbers when one of them asks: "So, what are you in for?"
"Hot arrowheads and felonious possession of a fossil."


However, the underlying emotion seems to be just what it should be: outrage at this 2-year, "undercover operatives, secret recordings, SWAT team-style raids, heavy weaponry, dangling handcuffs" $130,000 operation

I hope that Florida's FWC wear this black eye for a long, long time. Just pathetic... or as the author so aptly put it, "a low-rent version of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Looney Tunes.


If I lived in the Sunshine State I would be even more outraged, and would be sending letters to everyone from the local LEOs to the guv regarding the mind-boggling idiocy.

Next thing, they'll be digging in the books to enforce some of the obscure laws from eons past.... be careful of oral sex, kissing your wife's breasts, or showering naked.
 

Thanks for the link.

I agree with almost everything on there, except the 100 year rule as it would apply to isolated finds, and non-Native American items, and the inclusion of bottles, and no exclusion for buttons, and other common, historic, items. I don't think too much unknown culture was going on in 1879....Just the final rounding up and extermination of the very people and culture that the government was then (100 years later) so interested in preserving.

I don't think the 100 year rule should be on an increasing scale. What was being produced by Native Americans in 1914 was always meant for consumers. In other words, the tourist trade. And I don't know of any Native bottle manufacturing.

I see an exclusion in the federal law for surface finds of projectile points (which until clarified otherwise, would lead one to believe river bottom "surface" finds as well).

That is basically all in line with what most responsible collectors want as well...the important sites to be protected, and a course for lawful retrieval of what's right in front of your eyes in surface, or isolated items. The truth is...someone is going to pick it up, whether they know the law or not.


What all this is about, is the heavy-handed tactics of the FWC, the over-reaching law in Florida that goes way beyond the federal law, the waste of taxpayers money for this operation that, by their own admission, didn't get the people they were actually after....but hey....after two years and $130,000...somebody had to get arrested!


Also glad to see the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act listed there....For as much as the Archaeological Resources Protection Act was brought about to protect sites from looters and grave robbers....this act was brought about to protect some of the same sites and human remains from all the museums, and professional archaeologists that just love nothing better than opening up a grave, taking some remains to study, writing a paper few will ever see, and filling out that grant money application! There are plenty of people out there that consider them looters and grave robbers as well...Remember: "When you point your finger at someone, you have three more pointing back at you!"

No matter how much the state archaeologists and FPAN bloggers cry about all this...any rational thinking person can see that this "operation" and the lives it ruined, and the current law, the way it is written, is just not right.
 
The fact you can not even pick up a point from a stream or river bottom and take it home shows how idiotic the Florida law is, they prefer artifact be lost for ever. I even had archeologists tell me points recovered from creeks, streams and rivers are useless to them as far as archeological information...








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We will NOT go quietly into the night!
 
Federal investigators estimate that four-fifths of the nation's archaeological sites have been plundered by amateur collectors and professional thieves.

Thanks for the post.
However, I was thinking you had some scientific or peer-reviewed work that indicated such a high number..... you'll forgive me if I take a couple of government produced/sponsored articles with a grain of salt.

(I'm sure the Florida FWC could---- and likely will---- 'spin' their idiotic performance on this desperately-needed operation with much the same efficacy.)

In playing 'Devil's Advocate' , one might say that if any agreement, at all, is offered to the 85% or 90% numbers offered in your two citations, it would be because the state and federal group(s) responsible for such discoveries are incompetent to actually get out in the field and DO WORK.... much easier to use terms like 'looting' than to discover and document on their own.
Plus it justifies their budgets.
 
I think most of us don't have a problem with busting people that dig into actual, protected, sites on state land...but with the way the law stands regarding out of context, surface, and water finds, and the "50 year" rule.
 
http://www.ajaonline.org/sites/default/files/1171_Proulx.pdf

Artifact Looting, Theft and Smuggling

Expedition Magazine | Archaeological Looting

and while one may be able to post links about professionals in the field "looting", it is rare and that person will never be certified to excavate again.



Yeah well...One certainly can...that was one page of a quick google search....and it is interesting that you think that when a regular citizen takes something it is looting, but when a professional does it is "looting". The professional archaeologists that stole are just as much a looter as anyone else...EXCEPT...they are supposed to be protecting the sites they loot...so I think to a lot of people, would consider that, at least morally, a little worse.

Again, Human greed is human greed, whether you have a PHD, work in a museum, or are some kind of meth head....but a lot of people want to post all these links about looting, and throw up the two recent cases of arrests, and label everyone without grant money in their pockets as looters, but when you turn the tables and show that it happens on both sides, it's "rare".

My county used to have mounds all over it...but they are mostly all gone....looters? No...the state bulldozed them, hauled them off, and used them for road beds. And Mound Park Hospital in St. Petersburg? Well, it's Bayfront Health now...and the mound? Progress once again obliterates history.

The point is...again...the looter and grave robber labels can be applied to all parties involved if you want...the difference is, the pro-Isolated Finds and permit side, is open minded enough to see both sides and make a common sense evaluation on the subject, whereas, the other side is sticking to their indoctrinated beliefs that they are the only ones that should be allowed to touch anything remotely ancient (like 50 years old pennies).


I believe sites are looted every day. I believe that something should be done about it. I think a projectile point on the river bottom between some fishing sinkers, some beer cans, and a bicycle wheel is out of context, and will never be excavated and studied by a professional archaeologist. I think the current laws in Florida are over-reaching, and the tactics and penalties are over-bearing. I think the biggest threat to all sites in Florida (now that we don't build roads out of them), is construction, logging, and the lack of any professional interest in them, until after they are looted. I believe that someone that buys a point on Craigslist, then sells it on Ebay isn't a looter. I believe someone that picks up an isolated find isn't a looter. I believe that a professional archaeologist that steals from a site is a looter and not a "looter".

You are free, of course, to keep posting links to stories about how looting occurs, and how archaeologists don't like looters, but we don't need convincing...We get it. This conversation...once again...is about the lack of the Isolated Finds Program, the current Florida law, and the FWC's tactics.
 
let me be clear...I was ostracized from the anthropology department for referring to archies grave robbers...NAU
I DONT DIG. I DONT APPROVE OF DIGGING. PEOPLE IN THE SOUTHWEST BURIED THEIR RESPECTED ELDERS UNDER THEIR FLOORS.
let them rest. leave their pottery and sandals

a professor over heard my rant...poof...no degree in anthropology...



so rationalize my opinion and the facts however to meet ones needs.
and thanks for your permission to post in the future...



OOOOOHHHHH! See what happens when we let you be clear! :icon_thumleft:

How about being clear more often, instead of quick little links with no explanation, or quick little quips that are wide open to personal interpretation!

Now that you have ACTUALLY stated YOUR opinion, instead of links to other peoples, we can understand a little more where you are coming from, and don't need to try to "rationalize" your opinion.

....And I thought for sure that the fact that I added the "of course" part in that sentence about you posting your links would have meant that I wouldn't have to read the old, trusty, "thanks for your permission to post" line that is so popular on the old internet! And to address the point, even though it is misplaced...You are very welcome! Enjoy! :laughing7: And I hate to have to lay it out...but...that was humor...not arrogance...

Seems we agree on the grave digging, no matter who is digging, but we might disagree on the isolated, out of context stuff....but hey...maybe not, who knows what your opinion of that is at this point...maybe you will clarify it...or not.

I think my opinion was made pretty clear in this thread....
 
Any artifact found in moving water has lost context and should be able to be saved by anyone finding it instead of lost forever no matter who finds it







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We will NOT go quietly into the night!
 
This page throws light on just how many professional archaeologists feel toward collectors and "looting". I highly recommend it just to hear their point of view:

archaeologyfieldwork.com - Define a Looter

And the thread developed when a collector like you or I started it all off by asking:

"Thought it might be interesting to hear how y'all Archaeologists might define what a looter is. It seems the term has been tagged to ever increasing and responsible generation of collectors, along with the bad element. Not trying to stir the pot, just would like to hear some responsible opinions."

The replies that collector received offer deep insight into the thought process of some in the professional community. I bookmarked it for that very reason. You would be surprised how broad their definition of "in context" can really be. Very thought provoking thread on the subject of "context" and "looting".
 
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Interesting read...I got through about half of it...man some of those people "like their own brand"!

So a point pulled from the surface of an agricultural field that has been plowed, turned, and plowed again, over and over through the years is still in context, but one a collector pulls out of the ground is data lost forever!? what's the difference on how it got above ground, if a surface find is in context?

And the one that said that "saving" an artifact is bunk because they had been doing just fine for thousands of years, must not be aware of things like Walmart, hydroelectric dams, interstates, housing developements, aliens who's spaceships run on cattle genitalia, and arrowheads, etc....sheesh!
 
all this makes me wonder, is there something they don't want us to find out
 
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