Be careful collecting in FL

[Flex68]

An article from the Tampa Bay Times....looks like a bunch of folks got popped by FWC for collecting/buying artifacts.
Sad stuff, and with the 'criminals' they netted, a pretty pathetic way to spend state money.



North Florida arrowhead sting: What's the point? | Tampa Bay Times

 

[unclemac]

This page throws light on just how many professional archaeologists feel toward collectors and "looting". I highly recommend it just to hear their point of view:

archaeologyfieldwork.com - Define a Looter

And the thread developed when a collector like you or I started it all off by asking:

"Thought it might be interesting to hear how y'all Archaeologists might define what a looter is. It seems the term has been tagged to ever increasing and responsible generation of collectors, along with the bad element. Not trying to stir the pot, just would like to hear some responsible opinions."

The replies that collector received offer deep insight into the thought process of some in the professional community. I bookmarked it for that very reason. You would be surprised how broad their definition of "in context" can really be. Very thought provoking thread on the subject of "context" and "looting".

i have never met an archaeologist that didn't have a mighty fine collection of their own.....

 

[thrillathahunt]

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government" Thomas Jefferson

 

[Get-the-point]

The fact you can not even pick up a point from a stream or river bottom and take it home shows how idiotic the Florida law is, they prefer artifact be lost for ever. I even had archeologists tell me points recovered from creeks, streams and rivers are useless to them as far as archeological information...








3%

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

MALO PERICULOSAM, LIBERTATEM QUAM QUIETAM SERVITUTEM


We will NOT go quietly into the night!

That is correct TreasureH.....They can only type it. Its whereabouts when it dislodged from the earth cannot be known unless it was still sticking in the riverbank ready to wash out. The stratus level that it came out of can be dated if it is still embedded. I actually wrote a post on what we should do about a year ago. It was pretty much a way for both finder and Gov't to agree and relax on the law....I'll repost it, I think it is a pretty good idea and it could work if we all pushed for it and laid it out for the Dept. of Interior. It would take mass support but it is a viable solution.

 

[Charl]

i have never met an archaeologist that didn't have a mighty fine collection of their own.....

Wow! I would not think it that common at all. It is unethical for an archaeologist to collect artifacts and they do learn that in archaeological ethics classes early on. I only knew one that fit that description of the 20 or thereabouts that I've had the opportunity to get to know. How many rogue archaeologists have you known? Did any of them actually allow you to see their collection, witness their unethical behavior? They trusted you to that extent? Why would they allow you to know that about them I wonder, since what would stop you from ratting them out?? Although your observation may be spot on from your own experience, I do not believe your statement would stand as a valid generalization where archaeologists in general are concerned. In essence, what you are saying is that you have never met an archaeologist who believes in and adheres to the ethics of his/ her profession!!!! That is one extreme statement, especially if you're thinking of dozens of archy's when you make such an extreme statement. I've just known far too many myself to accept that as a general existing situation. The one archy I did know who went over to the "dark side" so to speak even sold artifacts in secret, a worse transgression even then simply owning them. No, professional archaeologists owning their own collections in violation of their disciplines ethical standards is rare. I don't believe your statement would have a valid application at all to American archaeologists. Surely your observation represents extreme exceptions and absolutely not the norm at all.

 

[unclemac]

no, not rogue, I am not suggestin that at all. I know both those who work in the academic setting and professional (business). they certainly do not pilfer sites that they work on nor do they go out and dig mounds....they are very professional and know the laws. ...they just have very nice collections, inherited, surface finds, gifts, etc. I don't really ask where they go, have gone, aquired, etc. Many collected in their youth and that lead to an interest that they later studied i suppose. They just have nice collections that is all...and not jsut points either.

 

[Charl]

no, not rogue, I am not suggestin that at all. I know both those who work in the academic setting and professional (business). they certainly do not pilfer sites that they work on nor do they go out and dig mounds....they are very professional and know the laws. ...they just have very nice collections, inherited, surface finds, gifts, etc. I don't really ask where they go, have gone, aquired, etc. Many collected in their youth and that lead to an interest that they later studied i suppose. They just have nice collections that is all...and not jsut points either.

Thanks. It's an ambiguous issue in many ways. Since a I put information above material artifacts, in relative importance, I can only really think like an archaeologist myself. But I collect and build a private collection, which, at best, is tolerated by the professional community, and makes me a bit hypocritical. At the same time, too many professionals insist on too insular an approach to knowledge and the public is largely out of the loop. The keenly interested public. Archaeologists throw out the baby with the bath water if they don't recognize many amateurs are very much colleagues in spirit and knowledge.

 

[Lynne G. Peck]

Do any of you know how many artifacts are stored at our wonderful Smithsonian Insitution in DC. Millions & millions that the public will never see. I mean Millions & millions.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Smithsonian Collections | Newsdesk

National Museum of the American Indian—813,968 artifacts
Collection includes fine carvings in wood, horn and stone from the Northwest Coast of North America; dance masks from the American Southwest; textiles from Peru, Mexico and the Navajo area of the United States; basketry from the American Southwest and Southeast and from Peru; pre-Columbian gold work from Mexico and Peru; jade objects made by the Olmec and the Maya; Inuit carved masks; Aztec mosaics; feather work from the Amazon; and painted hides and garments from the North American Plains.



813,968 artifacts <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Encyclopedia Smithsonian: Archaeology

 

[Jon Phillips]

Smithsonian Collections | Newsdesk

National Museum of the American Indian—813,968 artifacts
Collection includes fine carvings in wood, horn and stone from the Northwest Coast of North America; dance masks from the American Southwest; textiles from Peru, Mexico and the Navajo area of the United States; basketry from the American Southwest and Southeast and from Peru; pre-Columbian gold work from Mexico and Peru; jade objects made by the Olmec and the Maya; Inuit carved masks; Aztec mosaics; feather work from the Amazon; and painted hides and garments from the North American Plains.



813,968 artifacts <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

He said artifacts...not American Indian artifacts...and his point was: "Millions & millions that the public will never see."


Per your link:

"The Smithsonian Institution—the world’s largest museum and research complex—includes 19 museums and galleries and the National Zoological Park. The total number of artifacts, works of art and specimens in the Smithsonian’s collections is estimated at 137 million. The bulk of this material—more than 126 million specimens and artifacts—is part of the National Museum of Natural History."

"Only a small portion of the Smithsonian’s collections (estimated at less than 2 percent) is on display in the museums at any given time. Many collections are used by researchers from all over the world. They come to the museums or to the Museum Support Center, which houses most of the Natural History collections and labs."



Although this inventory does include works of art, and specimens, it certainly leaves plenty of room for millions and millions of artifacts to not be on display. I don't believe that the word "artifact" is only applied to Native American produced items....

 

[GatorBoy]

What is the use in storing thousands upon thousands of redundant objects most never to be seen or appreciated by the public who likely funded thier excavation?
Many of these items go up for auction.
The Florida Museum of Natural History as I'm sure other states museums often do not accept more inventory of items they already have boxes and boxes of.
So those are the items that apparently are supposed to be left for a road to be paved over the Walmart to be built on top of...ect..ect..

 

[GatorBoy]

No archaeologist is going to put together any new information by walking a plowed field or walking a long a creek looking in gravel beds.. Or searching the bottom of a waterway for displaced items.. The baby being thrown out with the bathwater was a spot on analogy here I believe

 

[Flex68]

No archaeologist is going to put together any new information by walking a plowed field or walking a long a creek looking in gravel beds.. Or searching the bottom of a waterway for displaced items..

Ah, but they would have us believe otherwise!
And the 'spin' that the powers-that-be are able to place upon issues/situations such as these ---- to the uninformed public ---- will generally place them and the poorly-worded and poorly-constructed laws in the most favorable light.

If one is messing with archaeological finds that are 'undisturbed' and/or are remaining 'in-situ'..... well, that's one thing.
But there are far too many gray areas when one is speaking of mixed-matrices in streambeds, plowed fields, etc.

But, hell, I say bring the SWAT teams, every time!
Can't be too careful, right......?



I gotta be careful that my posts don't become too politically-incorrect, lol, but I think that the overall thought/feeling still reflects the fact that the Florida FWC went to the extreme in this instance.
And, unfortunately, that this likely isn't a singular example......

 

[Charl]

Do any of you know how many artifacts are stored at our wonderful Smithsonian Insitution in DC. Millions & millions that the public will never see. I mean Millions & millions.

It never bothered me that any museum will store, rather then display, many artifacts. My attitude was at least they are protected. In storage is OK by me. When I pass, my collection is going to a regional museum, an archaeological society. One of my sites is an excellent assemblage and can be a teaching collection in itself. Or it can sit in storage with other collections donated over the past 100 years. What I bought over the years can be scattered to the winds but I want our personal finds left intact and preserved as part of the archaeological record of my town. It doesn't have to be on display. I know many collectors feel if a museum accepts a collection and puts it in the basement, then that is not a good thing. Well, if all the displays were empty, that would be stupid, but museums install displays. You just can't display everything at once. If I displayed everything I owned, we would have to put a "Museum" sign on the door and shop for another apartment to actually live in. So, much of our own collection is already in storage now rather then on shelves for visitors to see. Just knowing things are protected and not being thrown away comforts me some how. One of the biggest "problems" with storage is the number of important discoveries made in museum collections gathering dust. New species of animals, collected decades ago, are found in collections quite by accident, and there must be many, many discoveries gathering dust that way because nobody has had the time to examine closely everything in storage.

 

[bci101tractors]

I can tell you that my collection will be donated to the local college, when I expire. The local college was very quick to show me everything, and I mean everything, collected thru the years in my area. We went out for lunch, BS'ed and had a great time. My girls dont give a rip, so I will hand them down to trusted hands not necessarily hidden from the public when known how to ask.
I am sure that anything can and will be shown to those that are cordial and understanding to the circumstances that these guys are faced with.
This is my area, other parts of the U.S. are certainly different, but thats the way it is here..
Lets give the archies a break.

It never bothered me that any museum will store, rather then display, many artifacts. My attitude was at least they are protected. In storage is OK by me. When I pass, my collection is going to a regional museum, an archaeological society. One of my sites is an excellent assemblage and can be a teaching collection in itself. Or it can sit in storage with other collections donated over the past 100 years. What I bought over the years can be scattered to the winds but I want our personal finds left intact and preserved as part of the archaeological record of my town. It doesn't have to be on display. I know many collectors feel if a museum accepts a collection and puts it in the basement, then that is not a good thing. Well, if all the displays were empty, that would be stupid, but museums install displays. You just can't display everything at once. If I displayed everything I owned, we would have to put a "Museum" sign on the door and shop for another apartment to actually live in. So, much of our own collection is already in storage now rather then on shelves for visitors to see. Just knowing things are protected and not being thrown away comforts me some how. One of the biggest "problems" with storage is the number of important discoveries made in museum collections gathering dust. New species of animals, collected decades ago, are found in collections quite by accident, and there must be many, many discoveries gathering dust that way because nobody has had the time to examine closely everything in storage.

 

[unclemac]

I can tell you that my collection will be donated to the local college, when I expire. The local college was very quick to show me everything, and I mean everything, collected thru the years in my area. We went out for lunch, BS'ed and had a great time. My girls dont give a rip, so I will hand them down to trusted hands not necessarily hidden from the public when known how to ask.
I am sure that anything can and will be shown to those that are cordial and understanding to the circumstances that these guys are faced with.
This is my area, other parts of the U.S. are certainly different, but thats the way it is here..
Lets give the archies a break.

I don't know where you are located but have you thought about donating them to the local tribal organization that is most representative of your finds? some reservations have museums that lack good artifact collections.

 

[mainejman]

I believe maybe a smaller institution is the answer.I have my collection on loan to a local library/historical society.Their book shelves are only about four feet high and they have glass display cases on top.My collection gets the exposure it deserves.They are very appreciative of having it.Also i dont feel like it is getting lost amongst the thousands of artifacts that larger institutions house.I am also trying to use this as a chance to start more interest in artifact hunting in the area.With maybe some sort of artifact show in the future.

 

[bci101tractors]

Ya, this is small town NE Iowa, there is no tribal organization that would be interested, otherwise, for sure. My main concern is to keep these as local as possible, Im talking just a few miles, with the hopes that someone like myself generations from now will call upon the school as I did and get treated as I did. It takes a certain trust to have this allowed for sure. I just dont want them shown to a bunch of folks who dont give a rip, but thats just me....
Or maybe, I might end up with a good son-in-law...lol.

I don't know where you are located but have you thought about donating them to the local tribal organization that is most representative of your finds? some reservations have museums that lack good artifact collections.

 

[tomclark]

I live in FL, have a FL collection. FL will never see my collection. I think this topic is closed. Whining and pissing about the laws wont' work here or in YOUR STATE. We have no power and little cooperation or money. Been there, done that. Done with it.