BLM

[kuger]

BLM enforces ARPA | Sierra Wave: Eastern Sierra News


I dont hunt public lands,but often try to warn people that do(usually am chastised for it....)

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

reply

BLM enforces ARPA | Sierra Wave: Eastern Sierra News


I dont hunt public lands,but often try to warn people that do(usually am chastised for it....)

Check out this link: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/info/iac/metal_detecting.html

This link says nothing about "50 yrs. old". It just uses the word "artifact". I would like to see where ..... in the evolution of this, that "50" even became some sort of bench-mark. Because as I understand it "100 yrs" was the original wording of ARPA. And some people would even argue that "bullets and coins" were exempt.

The bottom line is though, that as you can see by your link and mine, that metal detecting IS allowed. As for a "BLM manager" saying those thing (the quotes from the gal in your link), well, I don't doubt for a moment that if you asked persons like that, enough key questions filled with key-buzzwords, for an article like that (the reporter interviewing her for that piece), then sure. You can ALWAYS find someone to tell you "don't pick up anything" if you asked enough bureaucrats and archies enough questions.

I mean, quotes like that would be akin to asking the president of PETA (an animal rights extremist group) this question: "Can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into 7-11 to get a slurpee?" They would screach: "NNEEOOOOO! The bunny could suffocate in the hot car! That's animal cruelty! You can be arrested, and your car confiscated!" And they would probably have true stories of arrests and confiscations JUST LIKE IN YOUR LINK Kuger. But what did you expect to come from an animal rights extremist? Thus when I read quotes like in your link, coming from either an archie (or in this case, a BLM manager, granted), I realize they are always going to paint a bleak picture, and find a case-example of a scary story. And sure, no doubt someone, somewhere, has been roughed up for things like "picking up a 51 yr. old penny" and so forth. I don't doubt it. But if you and I took things like that to the umpth degree of worry, then let's cut to the chase and stop detecting all public land everywhere. Because at every single level (city, county, state, and fed), you can ALWAYS find things (rules, laws, codes) to preclude you from detecting, if you asked *just* the right people, with *just* the right combination of phrasing and scenarios.

Let's all just stick to private property with permission I suppose, eh?

 

[augoldminer]

Never had any problem with the BLM in Owens Valley. but those A**h**e from the LADWP can be a pain about where you can camp in a RV.

 

[Rawhide]

It is legal to hunt for meteorites on BLM land here. Im sure they are older than 50 years old. Now if I find a coin in the process, oh well.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Casca, well ... I don't often tell too many people this, .... but it is I, yes I, who own all the BLM land an meteorites. As such, I authorize you to go out and look for them. No, don't thank me. It's the least I can do for the furtherance of our fine hobby!

augoldminer, you "never had a problem on BLM lands in Owens Valley? Gasp! You know what this means don't you? You might *think* it means that.... doh.... it's therefore not a problem", RIGHT? But nneeeooohhh. It merely means you did not go asking enough desk-bound bureaucrat in Washington DC (or the nearest field offices, etc...) "Can I metal detect?".

So now then, go back and do the right thing and ask. Oh, and when you show up, be sure to have a shovel in your hand, and drop key buzzwords like "treasure", "cultural heritage", "arpa" and "indian bones", (lest they not understand the full implications of your question).

Now hurry, go do the "right thing"

 

[cudamark]

augoldminer.....isn't that name redundant??

 

[Fullpan]

Evidently he hates manganese encrusted nuggets.

 

[Rawhide]

How many shovels can I legally own when I do the right thing?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

NPS Archeology Program: Archeology Law and Ethics

http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/FHPL_AntiAct.pdf

Historic Preservation Laws & Codes

 

[cudamark]

How many shovels can I legally own when I do the right thing?

As long as it's not an assault shovel, you should be fine.....for now......

 

[doc-d]

Good thing this is the land of the free and public lands

 

[Jeanne]

PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

 

[wkrp43]

Hey vegetarians....! Why are you eating those animals food!?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

secret canyon, with all due respect, a few notes on your 3 links. For starters, you realize they're amost entirely related to federal (yes, I know, this is a post about BLM, which is federal, but .... just making sure the other readers don't infer that this subrogates down, unless by specific inclusion of a lower level). And even to the extent this would ...... technically .... apply to federal sites (arpa, blah blah blah), you have to put into context a few things. Like that first link, for instance: It's put out by archies. Now you've got to figure: Anytime you ask an archie to comment/interpret some law, when it concerns md'ing, what do you THINK they're going to say? NATURALLY they hate md'rs, and thus see any laws or rules (no matter how vauge, and no matter how many exceptions), as being "totally applicable".

It would be like asking a PETA rep: "can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into the 7-11 to get a slurpee?". They would screech and warn you about various animal cruelty laws. And tell you that you can be fined, jailed, car confiscated etc... (poor little bunny, eh?). But what did you expect coming from a PETA animal rights wacko? SO TOO do I put little stock in what some archies say. Thus just as in the peta example: Besides those lone few extremists, did anyone else *really* care if you left your bunny in the car for a minute? NO, of course not. So too do ........ sure.... sometimes you need to use a little common sense and discrection to avoid certain extremeist types.


As for the last link, I see that it has a section for the "state" level, after the section on the federal level. Thus clearly implying the separate levels/entity I speak of. And within that state part, notice the following quote:

"The Historic Preservation Section creates the State Historic Preservation Office within the Division of Culture and History and grants to it a number of duties, including the ability to locate, survey, investigate, register, identify, preserve and protect historic, architectural, archaeological and cultural sites, structures and objects worthy of preservation. "

Notice that not the "entire state" is a historic/cultural site. Only those sites which have been DEEMED such, carry that designation. Thus, sure, we'd all agree not to tromp on historic senstive monument sites. But no, not "all state land" is covered by those very things they cite.

 

[Clayton Bardwell]

As per BLM instruction memorandum number 2012-182 written on 9/12/2012 and expires 9/30/2013, causal collection of meteorites is allowed with some restrictions.

 

[lesjcbs]

Keep this in mind. As a general rule, here in the U.S. of A., land of the brave and home of the free (huh?), if you find some artifact that fits into the ARPA criteria, it will be taken away from you, post haste, by our government, and you will not receive even as much as a thank you. In Jolly old England, if you find an artifact of great worth or value, you will not only receive a "Thank you", you will be paid a very handsome sum of money for having found it. In many cases, that sum has been 50% of the monetary value of the item and in some cases, the amount has been, even at a 50% of value pay out, extremely high. The U.S. ARPA law DOES NOT contain any incentive at all for the finder to turn things in. It's just the opposite: Find something and you will be PUNISHED, not rewarded.

I read about a case in New York State where a 12 year old child was threatened by an Archaeologist and a U.S. Government official because the kid picked up an arrow head that was lying in a stream. The father stepped in between the two men to defend his child and was threatened with a law suit. The Father made his son put the arrow head back. Figure that one out. Sickening

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Keep this in mind. As a general rule, here in the U.S. of A., land of the brave and home of the free (huh?), if you find some artifact that fits into the ARPA criteria, it will be taken away from you, post haste, by our government, and you will not receive even as much as a thank you. In Jolly old England, if you find an artifact of great worth or value, you will not only receive a "Thank you", you will be paid a very handsome sum of money for having found it. In many cases, that sum has been 50% of the monetary value of the item and in some cases, the amount has been, even at a 50% of value pay out, extremely high. The U.S. ARPA law DOES NOT contain any incentive at all for the finder to turn things in. It's just the opposite: Find something and you will be PUNISHED, not rewarded.

I read about a case in New York State where a 12 year old child was threatened by an Archaeologist and a U.S. Government official because the kid picked up an arrow head that was lying in a stream. The father stepped in between the two men to defend his child and was threatened with a law suit. The Father made his son put the arrow head back. Figure that one out. Sickening

Les, can I please comment on some of your points?

The BLM "confiscation" fear you cite, would only apply to things found on federal land (not state, county, city, or private). And would only apply to certain items. Eg.: archaeologically significant, which is generally deemed to be 50 (or 100) yrs. old or older. And even THEN some would argue semantics that bullets and coins are "exempt". (although that latter point, is up for debate, as the key is whether or not they were in context with something cultural, etc.... or not). And really Les, even all THIS assumes that some fed. archie is there, with calculator in-hand, studying all the items in your apron. I mean ... seriously ... when was the last time you were in the middle of the forest/BLM or desert or something, with "concerned officials" out there assessing your each find? Sure, I don't doubt that such "fears" are something to be concerned about, if any of us are snooping around obvious historic monuments, or if you're in front of some "purist" archie who just happened to be waltzing by.

I mean, take for example your "arrowhead" example. While it sounds so horrible (and now we're all supposed to be leery of archies who "lurk around every corner and hide under every rock waiting to pounce on us). Yet that, to me, is akin to if I found a news story of some motorist who got pulled over, and roughed up, by an overzealous cop, for nothing but his tail-light out (and threatened with seizing his car, thrown in jail, ticketed, etc.... all for a "tail-light out"). Could it happen? SURE! There's ALWAYS some extreme example of someone getting "roughed up". But there comes a point when you can treat some stuff as isolated. If all such extreme stories are to be the standard by which we govern our future md'ing places, then you might as well give it up now. Because I bet I can find a story of someone roughed up and thrown in jail for hunting a sandbox at a city park and finding a clad dime.

Sure, I'm not saying "go flaunt your activities in front of purist archies". But sheesk, can't you be a little discreet and avoid those 1 in a million people?

As for the laws in Britain, I'm not sure what your point is. Are you trying to paint a rosy picture about "wouldn't it be wonderful to have such a system here?". If so, you're over-looking several key differences of their laws, verses our laws, that predate and have nothing to do with detecting (and would render it impossible to ever happen here). Namely, that in the UK, everything under the ground (even on private land) belongs to the queen. So for example: in the USA, if you discover oil on your land, your rich, right? (like the beverly hillbillies show, haha). But in the UK, if a farmer discovers oil on his land, the UK govt. gets it all, and you are dealt with on their terms, not the open market. Thus is the same for those metal objects under the ground. The only time the farmer or md'r can keep them, is if the govt. isn't interested in them (and "lets you" have them). So they don't declare and give individual coins, for example, unless something stupendous. Thus usually hordes are given/sold to the govt.). However, in the USA, if you find a cache on your land (or an md'r finds a cache on farmers land), it's theirs to keep and do what you want with. Thus it seems to me that the USA system is the preferred system, not the UK system.

And in the UK, their "protected" sites are not un-like the USA's "protected sites" (federal land, etc...). Thus those UK hunters you read about that get compensated (and a "thankyou") from the governenment are NOT finding those things on UK federal land. They're finding them on private farmers land (someone correct me if I'm wrong). There are HOARDS of sites in the UK on federal/public land that you CAN'T detect on, just like in the USA. So don't wax romantic about the UK system too quickly.

 

[lesjcbs]

Les, can I please comment on some of your points?

The BLM "confiscation" fear you cite, would only apply to things found on federal land (not state, county, city, or private). And would only apply to certain items. Eg.: archaeologically significant, which is generally deemed to be 50 (or 100) yrs. old or older. And even THEN some would argue semantics that bullets and coins are "exempt". (although that latter point, is up for debate, as the key is whether or not they were in context with something cultural, etc.... or not). And really Les, even all THIS assumes that some fed. archie is there, with calculator in-hand, studying all the items in your apron. I mean ... seriously ... when was the last time you were in the middle of the forest/BLM or desert or something, with "concerned officials" out there assessing your each find? Sure, I don't doubt that such "fears" are something to be concerned about, if any of us are snooping around obvious historic monuments, or if you're in front of some "purist" archie who just happened to be waltzing by.

I mean, take for example your "arrowhead" example. While it sounds so horrible (and now we're all supposed to be leery of archies who "lurk around every corner and hide under every rock waiting to pounce on us). Yet that, to me, is akin to if I found a news story of some motorist who got pulled over, and roughed up, by an overzealous cop, for nothing but his tail-light out (and threatened with seizing his car, thrown in jail, ticketed, etc.... all for a "tail-light out"). Could it happen? SURE! There's ALWAYS some extreme example of someone getting "roughed up". But there comes a point when you can treat some stuff as isolated. If all such extreme stories are to be the standard by which we govern our future md'ing places, then you might as well give it up now. Because I bet I can find a story of someone roughed up and thrown in jail for hunting a sandbox at a city park and finding a clad dime.

Sure, I'm not saying "go flaunt your activities in front of purist archies". But sheesk, can't you be a little discreet and avoid those 1 in a million people?

As for the laws in Britain, I'm not sure what your point is. Are you trying to paint a rosy picture about "wouldn't it be wonderful to have such a system here?". If so, you're over-looking several key differences of their laws, verses our laws, that predate and have nothing to do with detecting (and would render it impossible to ever happen here). Namely, that in the UK, everything under the ground (even on private land) belongs to the queen. So for example: in the USA, if you discover oil on your land, your rich, right? (like the beverly hillbillies show, haha). But in the UK, if a farmer discovers oil on his land, the UK govt. gets it all, and you are dealt with on their terms, not the open market. Thus is the same for those metal objects under the ground. The only time the farmer or md'r can keep them, is if the govt. isn't interested in them (and "lets you" have them). So they don't declare and give individual coins, for example, unless something stupendous. Thus usually hordes are given/sold to the govt.). However, in the USA, if you find a cache on your land (or an md'r finds a cache on farmers land), it's theirs to keep and do what you want with. Thus it seems to me that the USA system is the preferred system, not the UK system.

And in the UK, their "protected" sites are not un-like the USA's "protected sites" (federal land, etc...). Thus those UK hunters you read about that get compensated (and a "thankyou") from the governenment are NOT finding those things on UK federal land. They're finding them on private farmers land (someone correct me if I'm wrong). There are HOARDS of sites in the UK on federal/public land that you CAN'T detect on, just like in the USA. So don't wax romantic about the UK system too quickly.

Your point is well taken and yes, it looks to me like the UK system is better as it has the incentive of payment built in to encourage one to turn in artifacts. On this point, the UK is leaps and bounds and far better than the the U.S. ARPA Law. Where is such an incentive in the U.S. ARPA Law? There is none as it is all about punishment. The example I gave of the 12 year old boy being threatened by the Arch and Gov official for picking up an arrow head is not all that uncommon. In fact, it is taught in schools to children that they are not to pick up anything. I know, I was a Sub-teacher in a class where that information was taught by a visiting ARCH. It was also taught in detail at a Boy Scout Round Table meeting I attended recently.

In a town not far from where I live, a guy found some gold bars. He started talking and one day he was visited by Government Officials who demanded he turn them over. After he did, they then wanted him to show them where he found them. He refused. Yes, in the UK, the queen owns everything. Here in the U.S., the government owns everything, no matter where it is found. Don't believe that, find something then start talking about it. You won't have it long and you won't receive a thank you or one Penney for your find. All you will receive are threats and warnings.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

lesjcbs, your point about arpa vs UK system fails to consider that those things in the UK they are allowed to keep (even with a "thankyou") are not being found on the UK's federal lands. I'm guessing that their federal lands are a no-no. All the things that you get to "keep" or that are bought by the UK govt. from you, and that they "thank" you for, were/are found on private land.

Therefore, whether in the UK OR in the USA, in NEITHER case are they going to "federal lands". Therefore it's the USA system that is superior, not the UK system.

As for your other contention that things found on the government's land, at ANY level (city, county, state or fed) belonging to THAT government agency, .... well .... technically you may be right. But realistically, it's simply not happening in practice. Take for example if I go to the city park in my city, and find some silver coins. No one would care, right? No city official comes by and says to me : " You're going to turn those things in, right?". HOWEVER, I have no doubt that you're right, that if I walked into my city hall, with a 1916D merc in Au condition, and said: "Hi, I found this in the city park, and it's worth $12,000. Is it ok if I keep it for my own fun and enjoyment to sell on ebay, or does it belong in city coffers, since it was found in *your* park?". Guess what they would say? Of COURSE they would say "no you can't keep it". So too for a coin worth only $100, if I asked enough lawyers and desk-bound bureaucrats. Yet in actual practice, this isn't what's happening.

 

[lesjcbs]

You are correct in that what is supposed to happen in all cases, fines, threats etc, in reality doesn't happen. But when it does, poor finder. But that still doesn't answer my question: Where is the incentive in the U.S. ARPA law to turn something very valuable in? Where is the payment or the "thank you" at, whether it is found on private or Federal lands? It all boils down to if one does not get caught, it is because no one cared when they, by law are required to. But when a finder is caught, all kinds of nasty things happen iuder ARPA. In short, what we are then left with is take your chances. Forget about being paid no matter where the item comes from. The positive or negative incentive to turn something in is the key to superiority of the law, not the place an item is found and the UK has that positive incentive, not the U.S. ARPA Law which is all about punishment, not rewarding.