Brass, Copper, and lead Colonial Dig. Indian Trade Hawk Bell, OLD Coppers, Etc.

[PBR]

Finally got a break from all the rain we have been having, so yesterday me and my buddy went back to the early colonial site we have been hunting.
It has rained hard for a couple of days now, and the site lit up like fire. Its amazing how many signals we were hearing.
We concentrated on the area we have been digging the buttons and coppers from, and hunted for about 4 hours.
I ended up with a couple shoe buckle frames, 2 Small French colonial marines buttons (the smallest of the 2 is 18mm and has a nipple in the center, which is a first).
2 more early coppers. One is 28mm and the other is 18mm. Im thinking the larger one is a 12 Denier, but would love some help on the ID.
The smaller one is pretty toasted but it do see some lettering, and it looks like the strike was very off center on this one.
Also dug a small fragment of an ornate brass item with hole in it, and what I think might be a lead pencil?//// Any help with ids would be much appreciated.
My buddy also dug a FCM button, a buckle frame, and a brass indian trade hawk bell, pictured.
He had no idea what it was, I thought it might be a trade bell, so I told him id clean it up a little and try to id it.
Check out this link, its pretty interesting.
Jim Maus Artifacts - Indian Brass Hawk Bells

Here are a few more pics of the copper coins. Please help with ID if possible.

 

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[Iron Patch]

Here's a similar button from a Spanish wreck. The small coin is likely a Double Tournois, just has the look and it's not uncommon for them to be struck off center. The larger one is not really registering with me, and if it's French that would be unusual. I wonder if it could be Spanish. I'll have a look through my book... maybe French states, there's some fairly obscure ones in there. Plenty enough to say what it is though, just need to find the right one.

Fleetpage.htm

 

[DCMatt]

Is that a ship on the back of the larger coin?

DCMatt

 

[Iron Patch]

Is that a ship on the back of the larger coin?

DCMatt

That was my first impression too. If so, it may be a Jeton.

 

[PBR]

Here's a similar button from a Spanish wreck. The small coin is likely a Double Tournois, just has the look and it's not uncommon for them to be struck off center. The larger one is not really registering with me, and if it's French that would be unusual. I wonder if it could be Spanish. I'll have a look through my book... maybe French states, there's some fairly obscure ones in there. Plenty enough to say what it is though, just need to find the right one.

Fleetpage.htm

Thanks iron patch. That button pic you provided does look a lot like the one I found. It is possible to be Spanish as I read there was trade with the Spanish in my area at this time.
I read the link you provided and the button pic description said this button was large/oversize, but whos to say they didn't have smaller ones that looked similar.
I was looking at pics last night and thought I saw a denier that looked similar to the front of my large one. My knowledge of French coins is limited, so I guess I think everything is a denier if it doesn't say colonies franois on it, lol.
The large one has the best details of the three I have dug from this site, and its the biggest.!!
I was also thinking the smaller one is a double, as it looks similar in size to the other two we have found. This is the first off center strike, but I think I did some a couple when looking at pics online.
Thanks again and Merry Christmas.

 

[PBR]

Is that a ship on the back of the larger coin?

DCMatt

Not certain the details on the back, as they are hard to make out.
I was holding it under the light earlier and tilting it at various angles and I thought I saw a ship on it.
There are some horizontal lines at the bottom which could be the ship or water.
And there are some vertical lines at the top that are intersected with a horizontal line. They kind of look like crosses. These could be the masts.
I also see what looks like 2 shields side by side, which could be the ships sails. Its really hard to tell as I cant find anything like it online.
Thanks Matt and Merry Christmas.

 

[Iron Patch]

This pic shows the bust the best. It does give me the feel of something very Early French, maybe your oldest find yet. Could be a jeton, but still just guessing... but it's something different than a usual early French site find... I do know that much.

 

[PBR]

This pic shows the bust the best. It does give me the feel of something very Early French, maybe your oldest find yet. Could be a jeton, but still just guessing... but it's something different than a usual early French site find... I do know that much.

So I googled Jeton, as Ive heard the term, but never knew what it really was. Turns out there are thousands of variations.
Jetons were token or coin-like medals produced across Europe from the 13th through the 17th centuries. They were produced as counters for use in calculation on a lined board similar to an abacus. They also found use as a money substitute in games, similar to modern casino chips or poker chips. Thousands of different jetons exist, mostly of religious and educational designs, as well as portraits, these most resembling coinage. (The spelling "jeton" is from the French; the English spell it "jetton".
I am going to work on taking some better pics and edit the ones up top.
Earliest find would be neat, but thousands of variations might make for a tough ID.

 

[Iron Patch]

So I googled Jeton, as Ive heard the term, but never knew what it really was. Turns out there are thousands of variations.
Jetons were token or coin-like medals produced across Europe from the 13th through the 17th centuries. They were produced as counters for use in calculation on a lined board similar to an abacus. They also found use as a money substitute in games, similar to modern casino chips or poker chips. Thousands of different jetons exist, mostly of religious and educational designs, as well as portraits, these most resembling coinage. (The spelling "jeton" is from the French; the English spell it "jetton".
I am going to work on taking some better pics and edit the ones up top.

There really is a lot of possibilities whether it's a coin or jeton. The best path to an ID is if you can confirm a word or two. That will often establish what king, and from there it's usually not too long to figure it out.

 

[gwdigger]

Thats some neat stuff. That ship coin thing is really neat. Havent a clue what it is.

 

[PBR]

There really is a lot of possibilities whether it's a coin or jeton. The best path to an ID is if you can confirm a word or two. That will often establish what king, and from there it's usually not too long to figure it out.

Thanks. Going to start doing some more searching online. I can make out some of the lettering, but its hard to make out the full word.
I just took some photos. Chose the best ones, edited them with my software to try and enhance details, and then added them up top.
Thank you for all of the help.

UPDATE: I know this isn't right, but the words looked like MANDIOC AR DUX ET ACHELL.
I did a search of these words even though I might have missed a letter here and there, and came up with Manuel du Voyageur en Allemagne.
Not sure if im getting hotter or colder.

 

[PBR]

Thats some neat stuff. That ship coin thing is really neat. Havent a clue what it is.

Thanks GW. I just added more pics. Sure wish I knew. Its killing me.................

 

[gwdigger]

With the new pics, it has the look of a Spanish Netherlands Jeton to me. Looking online now.

 

[Bramblefind]

I think it may be this style jeton - might not be the exact same as this - there seem to be a number of varieties. But I think this is the guy..

acsearch.info - Auction research

 

[gwdigger]

Sure looks like that could be it.

 

[CRUSADER]

Agreed looks like a Jetton with a sailing ship.

 

[PBR]

I think it may be this style jeton - might not be the exact same as this - there seem to be a number of varieties. But I think this is the guy..

acsearch.info - Auction research

BINGO!! That sure looks like it to me. I was trying to make out the letters and all I could come up with was MANDIO AR DUX ET ACHELL.
That's pretty close to what is pictured on this Jetton.
Looking at my pictures im seeing a lot of vertical lines, so im not sure mine is pictured in the link you provided, but I do believe mine is a variation.
So what I think I can say at this point is it is a Cardinal Et Duc De Richelieu Probably 1630-1640's Jeton. "WOW" That's pretty old for my area..
The age is a guess considering all of the similar ones at the provided link are from this era.
Thank you so much Bramblefind, GWDigger, Crusader, DCMatt, and Iron Patch.
Have a Merry Christmas Everyone.

 

[Iron Patch]

You do well every time you go... so keep going!

 

[Iron Patch]

Agreed looks like a Jetton with a sailing ship.

This is not related, but a few times now I wondered what is wrong with the page every time you post because there's always more space to scroll down to get to the next post... and I just realized it's because of the long list of banner finds. Can only imagine if you would have been here since the forum started.

 

[gwdigger]

Congrats on a crazy old token. My oldest item, ID'd by Cru, is a ca 1630 coin weight of Charles I for a gold English unite so you matched that.