Brass Cross

[pcolaboy]

Hunted a friend's dirt pile today and found a beautiful copper/brass cross. I'm not Catholic but it looks like a Rosary chain cross. Can anyone take a crack at identification and age? This same yard has yielded lots of British and Spanish colonial artifacts in addition to American.


Before soap and water


After soap and water


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Before soap and water


After soap and water


Negative Image

Pcolaboy

 

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[ivan salis]

it very well might be one of the smaller type crossesoften given out by the missionary to local natives if they "converted" as a "sign" that they were "christians"-- of course they were not as fancy as the missonary's cross needless to say. (or a poorer person's cross from the settlement attempt of 1559 ) -- any way its a very very old and cool item to find -- no matter what.

 

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[pcolaboy]

-- any way its a very very old and cool item to find -- no matter what.

Couldn't agree with you more Ivan. 8)

 

[pcolaboy]

Since having this item moved over to the "What is it?" forum, I thought I would clarify a few things.

1. Item was dug up in ground that has been continually littered and churned up with stuff from modern day all the way back to at least to the mid-1700's and possibly as far back as the mid-1500's.

2. This was the only item I found in this specific area of my friends yard. While working in his front yard several months ago, I found a very old copper cuff link with Spanish royalty markings including the name Isabella. Whether or not this was merely an old commemorative of Ferdinand I and Isabella I has yet to be determined and this item is now in the hands of the local museum archaeologists thanks to my donation.

3. Several British and Spanish colonial buttons of milliary and civilian design have been recovered that all date to the mid-1700's.

4. Lots of rough pottery shards believed to be of indian origin (this is not uncommon in most of our region's coastal areas) mixed in with modern and old trash.

Pcolaboy

 

[ivan salis]

psst the jesuit mark that I'm speaking of is the sunshine type design on the rear of the cross near the center of it --

ps according to what info I found

due to losses of missionary personal thru death by attack from hostile indain attacks --the jesuits pulled out of florida in 1572 (and focused their efforts on south america --with its much richer resources and better controlled indains) leaving the door open for the franciscan order which moved in and took over the missions in the area.

so I would say without any doubt at all that its a jesuit itemand of course pre 1572 *(due to the fact they pulled out then) -- now that said heres a bit of educated "guesswork" * --- thinking on a % basis due to the numbers of folks about who might have lost it -- I'd say its a very likely % chance wize that it was from the 1559 settlement attempt . (due to larger amounts of folks being in the area at the time) --however it could of course be from an earlier batch of jesuit folks.

* my % theory that I use is (whats more likely*)-- and works like this
say a settlement of 100 folks was there in 1540 each person had a cross they all died -- then another settlement of say 500 folks set up in 1559 they too had similar crosses and all died --- now in 2009 if you found one of those cross's the odds of it being a 1559 cross compared to being a 1540 one is 5 to 1 (due to the population 500 / 100) make sense to you?

 

[detector de metales]

I totally agree with both Chagy and Ivan on this..
This is a find that has immense historical significance. The Jesuit or the "Society of Jesus" symbol as Ivan is describing has been key in dating this piece.. Nice work both Chagy and Ivan Hats off to you
They symbols you are looking at are within these Jesuit Symbols
http://eapi.admu.edu.ph/jesuitica/jesuitsymbols/index.html

Good find Pcolaboy
I say keep it near and dear and teach as you swing that metal detector!
J2

 

[ivan salis]

yep a 450 year old religious item in great shape from one of the earlist attampts to put a settlement into florida (1559)-- 6 years earlier than st augustine (1565) which is "offically" america's oldest city --- yes I'd call that historically important as well as cool as heck.

 

[Marc(NB)]

beautifull find!! The older crosses with the skull at the bottom are the oldest ones.I cannot tell you exactly how old it is but its a minimum 100 +years old!

 

[Chagy]

In my humble opinion I believe its 100% Jesuit....The one I found online its almost identical with the exception that it reads “mission” on the back.... it also has the same 3 arrows on top of the word mission....This type of crucifix was made by the Jesuits for the yearly festivity called Domund. And Like Ivan said what is more Jesuit than the sun and 3 arrows on the one found by Pcola...

Ivan,

I really wish it was pre 1572 and from a missionary and yes it may be possible since the first missions in Florida were in Georgia, St. Augustine and Pensacola....BUT back in the days the Spaniards were strong believers and many carried this type of cross which became more common and popular after the 1595......Anything is possible...It would be wise to find out what was the exact location of the missions in Pensacola

 

[pcolaboy]

I really appreciate the great replies and information. Chagy, the very first documented 'mission' at the present site of Pensacola was the Presidio San Miguel de Panzacola that was established roughly between 1752 and 1754 - some accounts state there were temporary trade and missionary sites at the same location even earlier. The mission at the location was originally intended to defend 'Christianized' indians from hostile tribes surrounding the area.

A little background history for those not familiar: the first known attempt at settling the Pensacola Bay area occurred in 1559 by Don Tristan de Luna y Arellano but was destroyed one month after landing by a hurricane. The 900 colonists and 400 soldiers were pretty much left to fend for themselves as they had lost most of their ships of the 13 vessel fleet. Most of their supplies were left onboard their ships until a permanent storehouse and stockade was constructed on the mainland. Exactly where they were planning to setup the colony is still unknown but it is reasonable to assume that it was near present day Pensacola due to abundant springs that flowed as well as the location of two of the estimated 7-9 ships that were lost to the hurricane and discovered in recent years. They tried to find a sustainable existence in the area and wondered all around the region until they were finally brought back to Mexico two years later. The very first permanent settlement of Pensacola was called Presidio Santa Maria de Galve which lasted from 1698 until 1721 and was located at present day Pensacola Naval Air Station. Due to several Indian raids and destruction of the fort by the French in 1721, it was decided to move the settlement across the bay to Santa Rosa Island and was named Presdio de Santa Rosa. This town actually flourished on the barrier island but was devastated by numerous hurricanes over its 30 year existence. Finally the Spanish decided to move the town to the location of a small trade and missionary outpost on the mainland, Presidio San Miguel de Panzacola. Incidently, the British were the ones to change the name from Panzacola to Pensacola - don't ask me why...they drive on the wrong side of the road too . Throughout it's Spanish history, Pensacola's funding and many of its early inhabitants came from Veracruz - not Havana.

I would love to think that this thing is from the 1500's, but I feel that mid to late 1700's is the most probable time period. Of course it may only be 80 years old as well - I'll never know until I get it identified in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for all of the great replies. I will continue this thread until I get a firm ID on it.

Pcola

 

[ivan salis]

my thinking is this --with the jesuit markings that are clearly on the cross -- note both the "the sun" and "arrows" -- I personally feel its jesuit 100 % -- now knowing that the jesuits left the florida area in 1572 * due to many of their missionary's being killed by hostile indains * -- as a jesuit item it would logically pre date the 1572 time frame .---its known that the jesuits had missions in the pensacola area ( I feel this cross might have been either a missonary indain cross "given" to indains to show that they were indeed "converted" christens or a poor class settler of the ill fated 1559 settlement)

thinking logically ---after the jesuits left (1572)--- later on the franciscan order "moved in" and took over the missons in florida , of course as "franciscans" they would not be passing out "jesuit crosses" -- since these differant religious orders competed with one another for both converts and wealth gotten from the people that they "converted".

the symbolism used on the cross and when it became widely used (it starting being used in the mid 1500's -- hitting is peak about 1600 ) helps greatly to tip off thats its very very old -- thru both its old fashioned styling and symbols used.

 

[pcolaboy]

my thinking is this --with the jesuit markings that are clearly on the cross -- note both the "the sun" and "arrows" -- I personally feel its jesuit 100 % -- now knowing that the jesuits left the florida area in 1572 * due to many of their missionary's being killed by hostile indains * -- as a jesuit item it would logically pre date the 1572 time frame .---its known that the jesuits had missions in the pensacola area ( I feel this cross might have been either a missonary indain cross "given" to indains to show that they were indeed "converted" christens or a poor class settler of the ill fated 1559 settlement)

thinking logically ---after the jesuits left (1572)--- later on the franciscan order "moved in" and took over the missons in florida , of course as "franciscans" they would not be passing out "jesuit crosses" -- since these differant religious orders competed with one another for both converts and wealth gotten from the people that they "converted".

the symbolism used on the cross and when it became widely used (it starting being used in the mid 1500's -- hitting is peak about 1600 ) helps greatly to tip off thats its very very old -- thru both its old fashioned styling and symbols used.

Thanks as always Ivan. If this crucifix has some historical significance, I just don't think I'll be able to bring myself to keeping it. Connecting to the past is where I get satisfaction from metal detecting - not building some giant collection to stick on my wall. My love of history and my fiery passion for preserving it will most likely lead me to lending it to the local archaeologists. My head tells me to keep it for myself since the archaeologists will probably just stick it in a drawer, but my heart tells me that I should take the chance to have it properly researched and studied for whatever it's worth. In the process, maybe...just maybe it might click in some influential archaeologist's head that metal detectorists can provide historic relics from areas that archaeologists neither have the privilege or means to access. Am I completely insane? In addition, I'm trying to set a good example for my 6 year old son.

Gosh this whole thing is driving me crazy. I know that I'll probably change my mind 50 times or more - it's WAY late and I'm getting punchy .

Pcola

 

[ivan salis]

sadly pcola , its far more likely the archie (unless he knows you well) will think --this scum is messing up the historical context of a historically important site !!! good thing I "rescued" this important item from him* now to tag and catalog it and put it away into storage for it to later be shown to "worthy" people --ie "archies of the future and current archies".

all to often very very little that is donated is put out on public display (theres even been cases where colleges and other measuems have sold off donated items) -- the only way I would hand it over is for "permant display only" with them signing a written statementlisting its cash value and saying it will be placed on "public display" or else returned to you or your hiers.--- if their not willing to do that -- then I say keep it and use it for what it was intended to be --if you believe in christ that is ----a cross to be passed down thru the years and treasured.

Ivan

 

[Smithbrown]

I would be tempted to do a half and half treatment. I would certainly show it to your archaeologists or museum curators to ask their opinions and make sure they know of its presence, but keep control of it yourself. Unless they are desperate for it, I would keep it in your family. You could always loan it if needed, thereby keeping ownership, but making it accessible.

Smithbrown

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe you could send some very good pictures first without revealing the location to see what they say.

great research and terrific find.

 

[pcolaboy]

Very thought provoking comments!!! Thanks for all the ideas. I think I will take the email photos approach first.

Thanks,

Pcola.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Your cross is very old and could be french.check out bobs fur trade link .Sounds funny with the area i know from the history timeline ,but i think the french may have been comeing to the area much sooner then thought.I found the GWC flint lock part 1645,and this cross is very old,looks like they may have traded with the indians in the area very early...... http://www.bobsphotogallery.com/gallery2/v/FurTrade/JesuitCrossesandMedals/

 

[RELICDUDE07]

This one was found in the 1st french biloxi miss....

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Your cross is very old and could be french.check out bobs fur trade link .Sounds funny with the area i know from the history timeline ,but i think the french may have been comeing to the area much sooner then thought.I found the GWC flint lock part 1645,and this cross is very old,looks like they may have traded with the indians in the area very early...... http://www.bobsphotogallery.com/gallery2/v/FurTrade/JesuitCrossesandMedals/

Looks very similar Relicdude.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

When they find this stuff up north its french and the same relics when found in the south are spanish Is it just me or are the french and spanish artifacts the same

 

[ivan salis]

ah here the "trick" to that relic dude -----the catholic jesuit religious order supplied both french and spanish settlements * with preist ---(since both groups were catholic) during early peroid time frame ----( in the florida area the spanish finally drove out most of the french settlements over time) --- by supplying priest to both groups the jesuits were in effect " hedging their bets" --no matter who "won" and settled the areas in question -- the "jesuit" catholic order would have its men "in place" .

however finding no silver or gold and finding the local indains highly resistant to attempts to exploit them (they killed many of the jesuit "task master" type missionarys sent to try to turn them into "forced labor") the jesuit order deemed florida as "unprofietible" and pulled out of florida --the franciscans order then moved in .