Bronze age axe?? UPDATE!

[ryaan21]

Hi all found this today about 100 yards from my house. It was a really good signal and i dug the hole and buried it twice out of frustration. My dad was close to me when i was digging and he kept giving me crap about giving up. So i dug down about 13-15 inches and up popped this. Im not sure how the pics will turn out but you should get the general idea. I live in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan which has an abundant copper area about 100 miles north of where i am. The axe head has a nice green patina and looks hand forged. Any ideas on a probable value or who i could take it to to get it dated?? Thanks for looking. HH.



Hey all. I managed to contact a really nice guy who is educated in this type of collecting/artifacts. He was really very helpful. He informed me that this item is indeed a copper "celt". Out of all the artifacts these ones are the most rare. It is between 5000-7000 years old and was used by native americans. The cool part is the site is less than a 2 minute walk from my house and there were several other signals almost identical to this one but i didnt dig them. Can ya guess where ill be on my next day off?? Thanks for reading. HH.

 

[Skrimpy]

I apologize. I posted a rant that probably should not have been. I will replace it with the words:

"Stupid people tweak me."

SPTM

 

[texan connection]

I got the same type response from a Sanmarcus lady about snokling in the river (public waterway) when i mentioned folks running dredges in the Llano for gold I thought she was gonna have a cow and told me it was agienst the law. I dont care if they confinscate sights after a find is made but do not think the find is thiers to keep. They dont have the funds to check all the good sights and most lay and go to waste I know of a Pirat ship in Galveston Bay not 10 ft deep that will likely go unsalvaged, But dont get caught there or you will go to jail.
I recently heard of 2 guys picking up arrowheads on the construction going on between waco and Hearne, found 14 right off, the Highway patrol stoped em, wrote a big ticket and took thier arrowheads, Now the sight is under pavment. What a waste. I wish we had the laws that Britian does about historic relics, There are likely more good stuff in private collections that will never see a musem, due to detectorist being scared of them being Confiscated!!!!!!

 

[The Gemologist]

My take is stay away from prima donna's I had a client who found two Folsom points (spear points, 10 inches each, later appraised at $50k) no b.s. National geographic got wind and drove him nuts. All they wanted was everything, and didn't want to give him a cent.

He finally dumped in a bank vault, and covered the site with concrete. Indians claimed ownership, state of Washington claimed ownership, National geographic claimed national treasure, all wanted everything, but would give nothing but head aches. All on his property.

If it's a real old site, you might consider going underground with your find just to protect youself.

Just a thought.

 

[Skrimpy]

I say rape the site, and keep what you want, then sell what you want. Keep the lips closed to PhDs and the like until you are done. Nobody tells me what I can or can't do with MY PROPERTY. If I want to dig a 50 foot privy and take all the bottles, I'm digging one and taking all the bottles...and Ill keep all the stupid stinking arrowheads axeheads, handtools and pottery shards I want. Maybe Ill sell one to the Archys once I've cleaned the site out. @#$%ers.

 

[CRUSADER]

Only when the last tree has died & the last river has been poisoned & the last fish has been caught will we realise that we can not eat money

19th century Cree Indian

 

[Skrimpy]

Only when the last tree has died & the last river has been poisoned & the last fish has been caught will we realise that we can not eat money

19th century Cree Indian

...and that Cree Indian lived off the land. I do not. He didn't need money to survive. I do. 1000 bucks is food on my table for 10 weeks. Not that my job doesn't pay the bills (it does), it's just the thought of 1000 bucks that could be used to feed my family or put me one week closer to retirement is not something easly passed up. Especially when some know-it-all PhD "thinker" is telling me I can't do something with my property.

 

[Kas]

I apologize. I posted a rant that probably should not have been. I will replace it with the words:

"Stupid people tweak me."

SPTM

I concure.

 

[randazzo1]

Another 2 cents,

As a genuine "archie" I'd say it's OK to keep it. Every site is important, but in reality there isn't enough money to excavate half of them. Sadly, myself and most of my colleagues are employed solely by construction projects. When a builder needs wetland permits to construct a housing project, we come in an do a cultural resource survey, regardless of whether the area is archaeologically sensitive or not.

Outside the construction context (where the builder pays), there simply isn't enough time or money to conduct thorough excavations. Private digs, even university funded digs, suffer from budget constraints that often leave 90% of the site intact for some supposed future excavation with more advanced tools.

Furthermore, although we hate to admit it, archaeology is a dying field. I read a piece by a famous archaeologist, Brian Fagan, about two years ago, in which he predicted the demise of the field. We've learned so much in such a short period of time, that most archaeologists have been forced to leave the field, or teach basic science/history at a highschool level. What will we really learn from another colonial or woodland or archaic or even contact site? Not much IMHO.

 

[CRUSADER]

Thanks all for the responces. Im gonna pretend i never found it and if anyone comes askin im tellin them i sold it.....CHEAP. I have been interested in archaeology since i was little so i know about site preservation and the lot. But over my dead body will i let some ego driven phd come into my town and lock down a park thats there for public use. If they were that interested in it they would have discovered it themselves. And to Crusader,I was more than willing to share information until i was treated like a criminal. Now every thing i find there will go towards new equipment and what not. I owe them nothing. I really value the opinions of everyone here and am glad a few people with different opinions chimed in. Its what makes us different and make this a good site to come to.


Concerning the woman i wrote. I agree a little kindness and tact will take someone far. She lost all hope of ever getting any information concerning this site or any others we find in the area. And if i decide to sell anything i find there,that doesnt make me a bad person. It makes me someone who is smarter and wiser now.

When you find something as important as this you are not only the finder but the custodian of a important relic. You need to keep it safe without damage for future prosperity. When you sell it it is important that the provenance of such as piece is not lost. ie. the buyer has the location kept with the piece. If your worried about giving the location because you haven't finished the site. Then promise to forward it to them when your done.

All I would ask, because you may kick yourself later is to record each item yourself with pictures measurements & a map of where they were found. You can keep it for 10 years until you met someone friendly enough to hold it for future study.

Don't lose this important information for the sake of some money.

 

[CRUSADER]

Another 2 cents,

As a genuine "archie" I'd say it's OK to keep it. Every site is important, but in reality there isn't enough money to excavate half of them. Sadly, myself and most of my colleagues are employed solely by construction projects. When a builder needs wetland permits to construct a housing project, we come in an do a cultural resource survey, regardless of whether the area is archaeologically sensitive or not.

Outside the construction context (where the builder pays), there simply isn't enough time or money to conduct thorough excavations. Private digs, even university funded digs, suffer from budget constraints that often leave 90% of the site intact for some supposed future excavation with more advanced tools.

Furthermore, although we hate to admit it, archaeology is a dying field. I read a piece by a famous archaeologist, Brian Fagan, about two years ago, in which he predicted the demise of the field. We've learned so much in such a short period of time, that most archaeologists have been forced to leave the field, or teach basic science/history at a highschool level. What will we really learn from another colonial or woodland or archaic or even contact site? Not much IMHO.

It amazes me you haven't suggested keeping records like my suggestion above? This is not just about keeping it or excavations.

 

[BuckleBoy]

When you find something as important as this you are not only the finder but the custodian of a important relic. You need to keep it safe without damage for future prosperity. When you sell it it is important that the provenance of such as piece is not lost. ie. the buyer has the location kept with the piece. If your worried about giving the location because you haven't finished the site. Then promise to forward them on when your done.

All I would ask, because you may kick yourself later is to record each item yourself with pictures measurements & a map of where they were found. You can keep it for 10 years until you met someone friendly enough to hold it for future study.

Don't lose this important information for the sake of some money.

I concur. I don't see why there has to be this friction between the Archies and our hobby. But I have had Archies tell me that anything underground is an historical artifact. Hell, I went out on a date with a girl once and she called me a "Tomb-Raiding, Artifact-Stealing, Criminal"!! Needless to say, we didn't go out on a second date... But I do agree about provenance. Without it we would have already forgotten most of our past.

Buckleboy

 

[downindixie]

Archeology didn't start out with professional archeologist,it started with amatuers who had a interest in history and ancient culture.Archeologist professionals started with a interest and studies.Once they become professionals they began to hate amateurs and hobbist.What a shame!

 

[WheatbackDigger]

Now that looks familiar...copper culture...nice artifact...I dated mine about 2000 years old and was sold off on ebay

 

[randazzo1]

It amazes me you haven't suggested keeping records like my suggestion above? This is not just about keeping it or excavations.

Crusader,

I was a little jaded in my last post. Sorry about that. As a metal detecting hobbyist/CRM archaeologist I am constantly defending my hobby against people who place an academic value on every chert flake and broken bottle that comes out of the ground.

I agree with you - records are a great idea. My boss often depends upon amateur records drawn up by oldtimers to locate a site or justify further research. Generally a great idea to keep em.

 

[texan connection]

Another 2 cents,

As a genuine "archie" I'd say it's OK to keep it. Every site is important, but in reality there isn't enough money to excavate half of them. Sadly, myself and most of my colleagues are employed solely by construction projects. When a builder needs wetland permits to construct a housing project, we come in an do a cultural resource survey, regardless of whether the area is archaeologically sensitive or not.

Outside the construction context (where the builder pays), there simply isn't enough time or money to conduct thorough excavations. Private digs, even university funded digs, suffer from budget constraints that often leave 90% of the site intact for some supposed future excavation with more advanced tools.

Furthermore, although we hate to admit it, archaeology is a dying field. I read a piece by a famous archaeologist, Brian Fagan, about two years ago, in which he predicted the demise of the field. We've learned so much in such a short period of time, that most archaeologists have been forced to leave the field, or teach basic science/history at a highschool level. What will we really learn from another colonial or woodland or archaic or even contact site? Not much IMHO.

Thank you Randazoo, It would seem to me that more archelogist would support the laws that Britian has, then more artifacts would be documented. Just imagine if it were so here, for instance this bronze axe would be sent in by Ryaan, documented then likely sent back (I'm sure they have plenty) officialy authenticated by experts(such as yourself), making it more valuable and more likely to wind up on display somewhere rather than hid under ryaans bed or on ebay getting less than its Value.
What Can we do about this??

 

[CRUSADER]

Another 2 cents,

As a genuine "archie" I'd say it's OK to keep it. Every site is important, but in reality there isn't enough money to excavate half of them. Sadly, myself and most of my colleagues are employed solely by construction projects. When a builder needs wetland permits to construct a housing project, we come in an do a cultural resource survey, regardless of whether the area is archaeologically sensitive or not.

Outside the construction context (where the builder pays), there simply isn't enough time or money to conduct thorough excavations. Private digs, even university funded digs, suffer from budget constraints that often leave 90% of the site intact for some supposed future excavation with more advanced tools.

Furthermore, although we hate to admit it, archaeology is a dying field. I read a piece by a famous archaeologist, Brian Fagan, about two years ago, in which he predicted the demise of the field. We've learned so much in such a short period of time, that most archaeologists have been forced to leave the field, or teach basic science/history at a highschool level. What will we really learn from another colonial or woodland or archaic or even contact site? Not much IMHO.

Thank you Randazoo, It would seem to me that more archelogist would support the laws that Britian has, then more artifacts would be documented. Just imagine if it were so here, for instance this bronze axe would be sent in by Ryaan, documented then likely sent back (I'm sure they have plenty) officialy authenticated by experts(such as yourself), making it more valuable and more likely to wind up on display somewhere rather than hid under ryaans bed or on ebay getting less than its Value.
What Can we do about this??

With our current Law you wouldn't even have to declare 1 axehead only if you found 2 or more. However you can record it like I did without worry of having it taken off you. Although the farmer really wanted it so I made him a replica (and 1 for the local Museum) plus gave him a broken Roman Silver Ring (only 1 I have found) which is still going throw the Treasure Trove system. We are trying to raise £500-£800 for geophysical survey so that everyone can get a picture of what the Burial Site looked like. So far from making money on this find it costing me loads. But whats more important?

 

[thompy]

i have to agree with the way they take care of the finds in Great Britian is the way to go. I believe its fair to all sides.

 

[CRUSADER]

i have to agree with the way they take care of the finds in Great Britian is the way to go. I believe its fair to all sides.

Very fair. Responsible reporting has increased 5 fold in the last 2 years.

 

[texan connection]

Thank you also Crusader, This has been a great post. I, like ryann have less abilities than others to contribute financialy to Historical Causes, but I could contribute to the knowledge, by my finds. Shame it cant (might someday, maybe never, Kinda pisses me off, typical politicians,etc .etc.) be so here in The Good ol USA

 

[skispeed69]

OK! I know this thread has gone on long enough but I could not help but chime in. Since I joined the USAF in 89, I have been a lucky guy being able to detect around the world many times over. From Iceland to Hawaii and back. I have come across many Archeologist in my time as well as museum curators. Most of the time, I get the text book Uni idiot who only cares about making headlines for him/herself's career. Currently I'm in Germany, tried to get a permit to detect in the public woods and such with no success, being told that I was the equivalent of a terrorist, (Funny that! One of the most significant finds in German history [Battle of the Teutoburg Forest] was found by a British Major doing what, you got it metal detecting)..... LOL. Now when I was stationed in England for 6 years I could not believe the cooperation between the archeological societies and the metal detectorist there. My club was located in Ipswich England. On monthly meetings a archeologist would come down for the Uni and look over our finds. If they were of historical in nature he would take them away, catalog them, even do a sketch and paper on the find. And guess what. At the very next meeting he would have your find, professionally cleaned and returned to you. He got what he wanted and you got what you wanted. It was a match made in heaven that I have not seen anywhere in the world. Its a real shame, considering we just scratch the surface of places that could give up so much more if we were one with the archeologist. I know I have gone on to long but it is a really shame when you think about it. So much is lost for what "PRIDE"... BS I say!