Button ? Military / Civilian ?

Mike in Berks · Oct 3, 2009

I dug this "whats it" back in April this year Looks like a button to me but i'm not sure ?
I've seen crossed cannons on here but, i don't remember seeing crossed rifles and i've
never seen a backside like this one before either :icon_scratch:

for all i know it might
have come from some kids clothing :dontknow:

It's 26mm wide a little wider than a washington quarter also: can anyone identify
what model/year the rifles are ? this should be an easy one for the experts

Montana Jim · Oct 3, 2009

Crossed Rifles = Infantry. Carbines (not muskets) - WWI or newer.

US Army Infantry leather concho or possible some other uniform accoutrement... you'll get a good answer soon.

Montana Jim · Oct 3, 2009

Okay... yea. It's most likely an Enlisted Helmet Infantry Side Button... From the model M1881 Helmet. Now I'm thinking Indian Wars era... late 1800s.

Bigcypresshunter · Oct 3, 2009

Montana Jim said:
Okay... yea. It's most likely an Enlisted Helmet Infantry Side Button... From the model M1881 Helmet. Now I'm thinking Indian Wars era... late 1800s.

Yep it looks like an INDIAN WAR PERIOD - U.S. INFANTRY BRASS 'CROSSED-RIFLES' SHAKO HAT SIDE BUTTON missing the hook. :icon_thumright:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=140572615

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=140572615

Montana Jim · Oct 4, 2009

Big Cy... the one's with hooks belonged to officers, the one's without hooks were enlisted.

Bigcypresshunter · Oct 4, 2009

Pic of the back. I thought it may have broken off.

Mike in Berks · Oct 4, 2009

wow in really suprised !! MJ and Big Cy you guys are good :thumbsup:

everything matches except the back the examples you have shown have "round wire" attachments
and on mine the attachments are roughly 3 mm wide and they taper to a point does that
mean they might have had different back styles ? ?

Montana Jim · Oct 4, 2009

Mike in Berks said:
wow in really suprised !! MJ and Big Cy you guys are good
everything matches except the back the examples you have shown have "round wire" attachments
and on mine the attachments are roughly 3 mm wide and they taper to a point does that
mean they might have had different back styles ? ?

Different backs and different manufactures and different years... You'll also notice your rifles cross left over right, Cy's example is right over left. I've seen others

Bigcypresshunter · Oct 4, 2009

Good observation. :icon_thumright:

I had a pic of these on the hat somewhere... can you pin down the date?

Mike in Berks · Oct 4, 2009

Montana Jim said:
Mike in Berks said:

wow in really suprised !! MJ and Big Cy you guys are good
everything matches except the back the examples you have shown have "round wire" attachments
and on mine the attachments are roughly 3 mm wide and they taper to a point does that
mean they might have had different back styles ? ?

Click to expand...

Different backs and different manufactures and different years... You'll also notice your rifles cross left over right, Cy's example is right over left. I've seen others

maaan, this gets better and better !! thanks so much for sharing the photos MJ :notworthy:

and no i never would have noticed the difference with the rifles Mike

Montana Jim · Oct 4, 2009

bigcypresshunter said:
Good observation. I had a pic of these on the hat somewhere... can you pin down the date?

The model 1881 helmet was the most copied helmet ever I think... it's been used in several countries - for military, police, and other uses. Late 1800s through the very early 1900s I suppose. I'm not sure on the rifle design... Okay, Yes I am.

The Infantry used the bugle/horn for the "infantry" insignia until 1875 when they went to crossed rifles on caps/hats. Buttons and collar brass followed in were common by 1898. The helmets were part of the uniform until 1904 I believe.

ivan salis · Oct 4, 2009

nice find -- yep these guys are good, various military suppliers made similar items by contract for the military ( say button with crossed rifles for shako hat.*) -depending on which maker it was it was minor differances could show up --the contract says " button with with crossed rifles" -- did not "spell out"- left rifle over right rifle or right rifle over left rifle --just "crossed" rifles -- so company A made it one way and company B the other .

it appears to have no soder mark for hook --so a enlisted mans shako hat side button from the 1875 to the 1904 era -- althought it could have been lost later on.
see similar ones at andersonmilitra website * -- model M1872 and M1881 ( their very similar to one another) enlisted mens shako side button . green check mark time.

Bigcypresshunter · Oct 4, 2009

I see the different backs and I agree with the ID but what is that?

ivan salis · Oct 4, 2009

if thats a bit of broken soder and there was a hook its a "broken" officers model side button --might be why it was "pitched" if it was broken and "replaced") if not then enlisted mans button -- good eyes cy .

Mike in Berks · Oct 4, 2009

Montana Jim said:
bigcypresshunter said:

Good observation. I had a pic of these on the hat somewhere... can you pin down the date?

Click to expand...

The model 1881 helmet was the most copied helmet ever I think... it's been used in several countries - for military, police, and other uses. Late 1800s through the very early 1900s I suppose. I'm not sure on the rifle design... Okay, Yes I am.

The Infantry used the bugle/horn for the "infantry" insignia until 1875 when they went to crossed rifles on caps/hats. Buttons and collar brass followed in were common by 1898. The helmets were part of the uniform until 1904 I believe.

Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out with this MJ :thumbsup:

ivan salis said:
nice find -- yep these guys are good, various military suppliers made similar items by contract for the military ( say button with crossed rifles for shako hat.*) -depending on which maker it was it was minor differances could show up --the contract says " button with with crossed rifles" -- did not "spell out"- left rifle over right rifle or right rifle over left rifle --just "crossed" rifles -- so company A made it one way and company B the other .

it appears to have no soder mark for hook --so a enlisted mans shako hat side button from the 1875 to the 1904 era -- althought it could have been lost later on.
see similar ones at andersonmilitra website * -- model M1872 and M1881 ( their very similar to one another) enlisted mens shako side button . green check mark time.

thanks for that extra info you provided ivan salis :thumbsup:

my question is answered with even more information than i imagined i agree with you .......
it's time thanks everyone :hello2:

Mike in Berks · Oct 4, 2009

This was found at a residence in Berks County 2 homes demolished + re - landscaped
so, i'll take a guess it was lost or thrown out infact the item was only 1 inch deep

i really appreciate everyone help on this !! good luck out there Mike