CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS IN A MORE SIMPLER FORM FOR US PLEASE

[kcm]

Maybe it's just me. But if it was dry it ceases to be "navigable water".

From OP: "1st Question: What is considered a navigable water way" In Texas, many areas are dry most of the year, so they use a rather unique formula for calculating where you can and cannot go. Sounds like the Warden gave the exact answer I would have expected given the questions asked.

Navigable water is, ...well, water. Navigable waterway, under Texas law, is any area that may be or become a navigable water during that one or any number of years, even if it is dry most of the time. ...I think this mostly applies to central and west Texas, as well as to the Panhandle. East Texas is fairly consistent on there being water.Extreme SE Texas is even swampland, just like the Cajun territories - only less of the swamp/marsh than Louisiana.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

.....Body of a Giddings Man Shot to Death Found in River Near Columbus | The Fayette County Record

Texas Fisherman Murdered on Border Lake; Police Say.......

deft-tones, did you read both those links ? The first link is so brief , it's just reporting a murder on a river, but no mention of motive, no details, no nothing. So I suppose that "murders" take place across the USA for a variety of reasons and in a variety of locations. So I don't know that that can be assumed to be an example of "someone violated the navigable waterways" question of this thread.

The 2nd thread is persons on a public lake, in the water, who apparently got into a scuffle with other fishermen. Nothing to do with this. Or, heck, perhaps we should apply this 2nd link as an "imminent threat md'rs should" be afraid of: public lake (for fishing) = public park or beach (for md'ing). = will result in getting shot. Logical conclusion = don't metal detect on public land (even where not dis-allowed), lest you will be certainly shot. Eh ?

 

[Deft Tones]

Tom. You ask for very difficult proofs that you are perfectly capable of searching out. I'm certain that in Texas, sombody has been shot fishing, or creek walking, or whatever specifics you require as evidence people get shot while in navagable waterways.

I like how unless I find a news link that fits your exact scenerio then it's invalid. Must have all the details of an unsolved murder, too.

What would it take to convince you Tom? What evidence do you need? You know crimes tend to minimize evidence, so what evidence can convince you short of a courtroom confession?

 

[kha924]

Even in the north navigable waters have such a grey area. Ive been well within the right of way of a creek near me and had many property owners think they own to the middle of it dogs barking and people screaming good luck figuring this out..In PA on the fish commission website there is a list of trout streams and will tell you the amount public and private also accesses might try looking for one of those for texas..and if all else fails wear camo and your running shoes

 

[Deft Tones]

I think the problem is that Tom is attempting to apply logic to a potential illogical criminal act.

I mean, I personally find it illogical to shoot someone for trespass unless a threat to life, but then I'm not shooting them for trespass at that point.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Deft Tones, sure, perhaps "incidents happen all the time", but the news stories just don't go into enough detail. Or words like the debate on "navigable" just don't happen to be in the story, etc... It's possible. But on the other hand, if/when NO incidents can be found, that seems to raise questions as to the likeliness/frequency of this as being "imminent threat". Thanx for taking a crack at it, and I appreciate the feedback you give !

 

[earl&patricia]

Well I am going to go talk to a Game Warren as soon as I can and try to have him answer these three question, It doesn't seem anyone really knows. lol
Or knows how to explain it. I have read toms of info on this and the laws are written just complicated for the normal person to understand. I sometimes think they do this to cause problems. this is as hard to figure out the meaning than your insurance policies.

 

[earl&patricia]

When I find out the info, I will put it out here

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

DT, you will never convince Tom of anything. His mind is made up. I don't know if he has ever stepped foot in Texas (or any place outside of CA for that matter- maybe he will enlighten us on that), but his writings don't seem to suggest that he recognizes that society differs from where he is or has been. If you look back thru his many posts, you will find that he likes to divert the discussion into tangents by demanding 'proof' (which apparently he alone gets to judge the validity of) of anything that doesn't support his position. I played into that game a while until I figured out that he didn't care what the evidence was, he would continue to trivialize down that same tangent to 'support' his position. Apparently in CA, volume = correct.

My main disagreement with him (or anyone for that matter that takes the position) is when he encourages people to knowingly break the law. He is more careful about doing that recently, more subtlety just suggesting that someone do so. It is one thing for someone to say 'I did it and nothing happened to me' rather than 'I've never been to your area but you should ignore the laws/consequences that you don't like and do it anyway'.

earl/pat, you are doing it Right, you know the area/people, and have the sense to judge the folks you will encounter. Yes, its always a possibility that you will stumble across an illegal grow/still/lab/whatever- that's the case most anywhere anymore. When I was younger and stumbled on a still in the mountains while hunting/rockhounding/hiking, the accepted behavior was to pretend you saw nothing and continue on your merry way out of the area. Everyone knew that meant you meant no harm and no one got excited. That's knowing your area. When I was in Texas, I'd say howdy, shoot the breeze a bit, and then mosey on. Each place has its different societal interactions that 'just folks' use. Intentionally pissing people off is rarely a good strategy when you depend on their goodwill.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I think you might read post #1.

In my state your logic follows so I would be inclined to side with you on that point.... but not in Texas!

Oh, I read it. Here in NY if you step out of the water you are no longer "navigating". It's a BIG thing on some stretches of trout water in the Catskills. Wading is OK, tubing, canoeing, kayaking OK. But woe be on you if you set foot on a waterfront lease or private property.

Our DEC ("fish cops") purchase right of ways for fishing (including walking on the bank) and list them specifically. They will have yellow signs along the bank as well.

Public Fishing Rights (PFR’s) are permanenteasements purchased by the NYSDEC from willinglandowners, giving anglers the right to fishand walk along the bank (usually a 33’ strip onone or both banks of the stream). This right is forthe purpose of fishing only and no other purpose.Treat the land with respect to insure the continuationof this right and privilege. Fishing privilegesmay be available on some other private lands withpermission of the land owner. Courtesy towardthe land-owner and respect for their property willinsure their continued use.

Here's a sample map.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/pfrsandycreek.pdf


Somewhere (Army Corps of Engineer's?) is a federally maintained list of navigable waters. Obviously Texas has it's own ideas.

 

[Deft Tones]

To the OP, I am sorry. I didn't mean to jack your thread.

Always ask land owners permission anywhere in the great USA. Unless it's posted public assume somebody owns it in this country.

When in doubt concerning laws consult a practicing attorney in your local area, or the local area you intend to hunt.

And always tell somebody, even LEO if nobody else, or leave record of where you're going... plans A and B. Especially if you go solo.

Or you can be a Jerimiah Johnson.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Or the local police chief. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

earl and patricia, been following your posts since you joined. You might be "over-thinking" all this. I mean, seriously now, ... is anyone out there (Navy commandos armed with tape measures) measuring "30 ft" and "whether or not you stepped over it ? And are there engineer poised to measure whether you've exceeded "50% gradient" from the creek bed, blah blah blah ?

If you can hike there, and walk your dog, and whistle dixie, then consider md'ing just as innocuous . Just avoid obvious historic sensitive monument, people's front yards, and fences/signs. Beyond that: I think you're over-thinking things.

Tom, it is still called trespassing when you set foot on someone else's land, doesn't matter if it is in the middle of no where. You can't tell people it is okay to trespass. Ever state is different on what constitutes "navigatable water."

January 20, 2017 A New Beginning!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Th'r, if it was "trespassing", then by all means: No one should trespass. It seemed , at the start of the OP, that they'd deduced some sort of legal right-of-way (albeit with measurements and such). If there is no "legal passage way", then yes: Everything you're saying is correct. I just wondered about the "30 ft. and 50% stuff"

 

[earl&patricia]

You didn't jack this this thread. We are all old enough to know what is right and what is wrong, if I had read yalls threads and went out and did whatever and got into trouble, then that's on me, not you. I made the choice to do it. Me personally, I would not do anything unless I know for sure. That pretty much is for everyone. This is a forum where everyone gives their advice, we all know all advice is not going to be the same or all will be correct, its up to use to make sure we do research on our end. I appreciate everyone's input, I might not agree with all of it but its really not worth anyone getting into arguements, not on our behalf. Im sure not everyone agrees with all my statements, I do hope no one takes offense to it either.

 

[kcm]

You didn't jack this this thread. We are all old enough to know what is right and what is wrong, if I had read yalls threads and went out and did whatever and got into trouble, then that's on me, not you. I made the choice to do it. Me personally, I would not do anything unless I know for sure. That pretty much is for everyone. This is a forum where everyone gives their advice, we all know all advice is not going to be the same or all will be correct, its up to use to make sure we do research on our end. I appreciate everyone's input, I might not agree with all of it but its really not worth anyone getting into arguements, not on our behalf. Im sure not everyone agrees with all my statements, I do hope no one takes offense to it either.

....But I'm "ALWAYS" right!!

 

[Deft Tones]

....But I'm "ALWAYS" right!!

Or with slightly more humility...

I could be wrong, but that's never happened before!

 

[kcm]

Really, your way of wording it never entered my mind. How could it, if it's not even a possibility?!?!?

 

[piegrande]

When we retired, we moved to McAllen, Texas. I had a buddy, a "good ole' boy", until he died. He told me it is simple.

1. Is it your land?
2. If not, is it plainly marked as a public park?

If not, don't go there without specific permission, period!

He didn't say they will shoot you. He said the rancher may hold you at gun point, waiting for the sheriff to come to take you to jail. And, while you wait, you will probably be on your stomach on the ground in the hot sun.

There was a historical ranch not far from McAllen, Laguna Seca ranch. It has its own cemetery, with some really interesting tombstones, including some with photographs of the deceased. We had read about it, and he and I discussed it. We drove to the ranch headquarters and he asked specifically if we could view the cemetery. The employee told us when the gate was open, respectful visitors were allowed to see it.

Let me point out that when he was younger he had rented land for growing melons on Laguna Seca land.

 

[kcm]

When we retired, we moved to McAllen, Texas. I had a buddy, a "good ole' boy", until he died. He told me it is simple.

1. Is it your land?
2. If not, is it plainly marked as a public park?

If not, don't go there without specific permission, period!

He didn't say they will shoot you. He said the rancher may hold you at gun point, waiting for the sheriff to come to take you to jail. And, while you wait, you will probably be on your stomach on the ground in the hot sun.

There was a historical ranch not far from McAllen, Laguna Seca ranch. It has its own cemetery, with some really interesting tombstones, including some with photographs of the deceased. We had read about it, and he and I discussed it. We drove to the ranch headquarters and he asked specifically if we could view the cemetery. The employee told us when the gate was open, respectful visitors were allowed to see it.

Let me point out that when he was younger he had rented land for growing melons on Laguna Seca land.

**EXCITEDLY** DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE FIRE ANTS!!